Fwd: What is porcupine?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

>"Porcupine" refers to a class of "experimental" scales and tuning systems. >A lot could be said about it, but roughly speaking, the
idea
>is to use an interval of about 163 cents to generate the notes, repeating >the interval as many times as one wishes (scales of 7, 8, 15, 22 . . . >notes are the most logical stopping places though) and wrapping around the >octave.

An example which stops at 13 is this:

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/exotic/porcupinized/bald.ogg

The music may sound strangely familiar.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

"Porcupine" refers to a class of "experimental" scales and tuning
systems. A lot could be said about it, but roughly speaking, the idea
is to use an interval of about 163 cents to generate the notes,
repeating the interval as many times as one wishes (scales of 7, 8,
15, 22 . . . notes are the most logical stopping places though) and
wrapping around the octave. There are some nice harmonies to be found
in such scales, with decently-tuned renditions of both conventional
triads (though fitting together into progressions not possible in
conventional tunings) and "extended" harmonies deriving from higher
up in the harmonic series.

I've explored the 7-note porcupine scale in 22-tone equal temperament
in some of my performances. The scale can evoke a unique blend of
Thai, Arabic, and Western Renaissance flavors, or something
altogether otherworldly, depending on how you use it.

-Paul
--- End forwarded message ---

STEPHEN SZPAK WRITES::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

As usual I need a explanation of a explanation. (Please don't chop off parts of this
message, for the time being.)
First, how can a 7 note scale exist in 22 tone equal temperament? Is the performer
playing in 7 or 22?

Stephen Szpak

_________________________________________________________________

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Szpak" <stephen_szpak@h...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> >"Porcupine" refers to a class of "experimental" scales and tuning
systems.
> >A lot could be said about it, but roughly speaking, the
> idea
> >is to use an interval of about 163 cents to generate the notes,
repeating
> >the interval as many times as one wishes (scales of 7, 8, 15,
22 . . .
> >notes are the most logical stopping places though) and wrapping
around the
> >octave.
>
> An example which stops at 13 is this:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/exotic/porcupinized/bald.ogg
>
> The music may sound strangely familiar.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> "Porcupine" refers to a class of "experimental" scales and tuning
> systems. A lot could be said about it, but roughly speaking, the
idea
> is to use an interval of about 163 cents to generate the notes,
> repeating the interval as many times as one wishes (scales of 7, 8,
> 15, 22 . . . notes are the most logical stopping places though) and
> wrapping around the octave. There are some nice harmonies to be
found
> in such scales, with decently-tuned renditions of both conventional
> triads (though fitting together into progressions not possible in
> conventional tunings) and "extended" harmonies deriving from higher
> up in the harmonic series.
>
> I've explored the 7-note porcupine scale in 22-tone equal
temperament
> in some of my performances. The scale can evoke a unique blend of
> Thai, Arabic, and Western Renaissance flavors, or something
> altogether otherworldly, depending on how you use it.
>
> -Paul
> --- End forwarded message ---
>
>
> STEPHEN SZPAK WRITES::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>
> As usual I need a explanation of a explanation. (Please don't
chop off
> parts of this
> message, for the time being.)
> First, how can a 7 note scale exist in 22 tone equal
>temperament?

It's a subset (and unequal of course). If you play something on the
white keys of the piano, you're using the diatonic scale, a 7-note
scale, within the 12-tone equal temperament tuning system.

> Is
> the performer
> playing in 7 or 22?

Playing in a 7-note scale, within the larger tuning system (some or
all of which may also avaliable to the performer, say for modulating
the 7-note scale to other pitch levels) of 22-note equal temperament.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:
--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Szpak" <stephen_szpak@h...>
wrote:
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> >"Porcupine" refers to a class of "experimental" scales and tuning
systems.
> >A lot could be said about it, but roughly speaking, the
>idea
> >is to use an interval of about 163 cents to generate the notes,
repeating
> >the interval as many times as one wishes (scales of 7, 8, 15,
22 . . .
> >notes are the most logical stopping places though) and wrapping
around the
> >octave.
>
>An example which stops at 13 is this:
>
>http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/exotic/porcupinized/bald.ogg
>
>The music may sound strangely familiar.
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
>
>
>"Porcupine" refers to a class of "experimental" scales and tuning
>systems. A lot could be said about it, but roughly speaking, the
idea
>is to use an interval of about 163 cents to generate the notes,
>repeating the interval as many times as one wishes (scales of 7, 8,
>15, 22 . . . notes are the most logical stopping places though) and
>wrapping around the octave. There are some nice harmonies to be
found
>in such scales, with decently-tuned renditions of both conventional
>triads (though fitting together into progressions not possible in
>conventional tunings) and "extended" harmonies deriving from higher
>up in the harmonic series.
>
>I've explored the 7-note porcupine scale in 22-tone equal
temperament
>in some of my performances. The scale can evoke a unique blend of
>Thai, Arabic, and Western Renaissance flavors, or something
>altogether otherworldly, depending on how you use it.
>
>-Paul
>--- End forwarded message ---
>
>
> STEPHEN SZPAK WRITES::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>
> As usual I need a explanation of a explanation. (Please don't
chop off
>parts of this
> message, for the time being.)
> First, how can a 7 note scale exist in 22 tone equal temperament?

It's a subset (and unequal of course). If you play something on the
white keys of the piano, you're using the diatonic scale, a 7-note
scale, within the 12-tone equal temperament tuning system.

>Is the performer
> playing in 7 or 22?

Playing in a 7-note scale, within the larger tuning system (some or
all of which may also avaliable to the performer, say for modulating
the 7-note scale to other pitch levels) of 22-note equal temperament.
--- End forwarded message ---
STEPHEN SZPAK WRITES:::::::::::::::::::

So the objective of taking the 15 EDO scale (which interests me) and applying
a porcupine generator to it is to change the notes of the scale. Some notes
exist in 15 EDO and some don't afterwards?
Also porcupine [15] in 7-limit minimax tuning (whatever all that means) has
10 or so fifths that are <10 cents sharp I think, comparted to 15 EDO's >18 cents sharp.
So these are 2 reasons why porcupine scales would be used?

S. Szpak

_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up Internet access � limited time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Szpak" <stephen_szpak@h...>
wrote:
> STEPHEN SZPAK WRITES:::::::::::::::::::
>
> So the objective of taking the 15 EDO scale (which
interests me)
> and applying
> a porcupine generator to it is to change the notes of the scale.

To someone else, the objective might be to find useful and
melodically and harmonically coherent subsets of 15-equal.

> Some
> notes
> exist in 15 EDO and some don't afterwards?

If you're changing the generator from the exact 160-cent value it has
in 15-equal, then at most one note will be in common between your new
tuning system and your 15-equal.

> Also porcupine [15] in 7-limit minimax tuning (whatever
>all that
> means)

Think of it as a particular porcupine generator, designed to best
approximate ratios of 7 and below, extended out to 15 notes. Since
you've changed the generator relative to 15-equal, you'll have
a "garbage" interval connecting the two ends of your chain.

> has
> 10 or so fifths that are <10 cents sharp I think, comparted to
15 EDO's
> >18 cents sharp.

Right, and the other fifths are "wolves" because they are not formed
purely from instances of the desired porcupine generator, but instead
contain the "garbage" interval replacing one instance of the
generator in its makeup.

> So these are 2 reasons why porcupine scales would be used?

Getting subsets of 15-equal, and getting 15-note scales with many
intervals and chords in better tune, are 2 reasons -- don't know if
that's exactly what you're referring to.

Are you familiar with the history of 12-note tunings in Western
music? All of this has analogues in more familiar, conventional
territory.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Szpak" <stephen_szpak@h...>
> wrote:
> > STEPHEN SZPAK WRITES:::::::::::::::::::
> >
> > So the objective of taking the 15 EDO scale (which
> interests me)
> > and applying
> > a porcupine generator to it is to change the notes of the
scale.
>
> To someone else, the objective might be to find useful and
> melodically and harmonically coherent subsets of 15-equal.

One obvious objective is to get things in much better tune than 15-
equal, while preserving some of its harmonic relationships.

In a message dated 2004:01:08 10:37:48 PM, paul-E writes:

>I've explored the 7-note porcupine scale in 22-tone equal temperament
>in some of my performances. The scale can evoke a unique blend of
>Thai, Arabic, and Western Renaissance flavors, or something
>altogether otherworldly, depending on how you use it.

I am trying to devise a scale that evokes a Deep Chinese (a la Lydia
Ayer's _Deep Structure of Chinese Culture_), dark sci-fi ("augmented" mode) and
_film noir_ "alien jazz blueness."
Mayhaps something like 2nd root of 8:7 (Beatin' Bleu China [BBC])
combined with Throbbin Chthonic Bleu (TCB) (7th root of 20:13)...

---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|
Hanuman Zhang, musical mad scientist
"Space is a practiced place." -- Michel de Certeau
"Space is the Place for the Human Race." -- William S. Burroughs

"... simple, chaotic, anarchic and menacing.... This is what people of today
have lost and need most - the ability to experience permanent bodily and
mental ecstasy, to be a receiving station for messages howling by on the ether from
other worlds and nonhuman entities, those peculiar short-wave messages which
come in static-free in the secret pleasure center in the brain." - Slava Ranko
(Donald L. Philippi)

The German word for "noise" _Geräusch_ is derived from _rauschen_ "the
sound of the wind," related to _Rausch_ "ecstasy, intoxication" hinting at some
of the possible aesthetic, bodily effects of noise in music. In Japanese
Romaji: _uchu_ = "universe"... _uchoten_ = "ecstasty," "rapture"..._uchujin_ =
[space] alien!