Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Mad Science Tuning

On Saturday 03 January 2004 10:11 pm, Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> Look! It's moving. It's alive. It's alive... It's alive, it's moving,
> it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, it's alive, IT'S ALIVE!!!
>
> Check it out:
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/mad.html

Gene, you are a genius!!!

I looked around your site a bit more, too. I love your pages on circulating
temperaments...I'm going to have to use some of these now, they sound
delicious!!!.....

BTW, how did you get such nice sounding samples? What equipment/software do
you use? How did you sequence the parts? Are they preavailable files that you
orchestrated, or did you play them/type them in yourself?

Cheers,
Aaron Krister Johnson, your fan.

P.S. In particular, I loved the Brahms Symphony #2 and the Ravel String
Quartet---two of my all time favorites...I'd like to see what you would do
with some Widor or Vierne organ works, in particular the Widor Toccata, and
the Vierne Organ Symphony #6 slow mvt.

🔗czhang23@aol.com

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> Gene, you are a genius!!!

That's what my mother always told me. Finally, she got someone to
agree. :)

> BTW, how did you get such nice sounding samples?

Downloaded them from the 'net. At the moment, I've been using SGM
quite a bit.

What equipment/software do
> you use?

Scala, Audio Compositor, Sound Forge, Maple, Sibelius, Ntonyx,
Timidity, midchord, midifix, mf2t, t2mf and AddaWav mostly.

How did you sequence the parts? Are they preavailable files that you
> orchestrated, or did you play them/type them in yourself?

I start with midi files and massacre them in various ways using the
above programs and hand editing or Maple computations. A great deal
can be done simply using Scala and Audio Compositor alone.

> P.S. In particular, I loved the Brahms Symphony #2 and the Ravel
String
> Quartet---two of my all time favorites...I'd like to see what you
would do
> with some Widor or Vierne organ works, in particular the Widor
Toccata, and
> the Vierne Organ Symphony #6 slow mvt.

Thanks! I'll think about this. I have a Widor organ symphony I know.
Did you see my organ version of a Berwald symphony?

At the moment I'm most proud of my porcupinized Bald Mountain,
performed by the Mizarian Symphony Orchestra in 22-equal, probably
because it is the last thing I've done. Not everything seems to
produce a nice result when porcupinized, but this surely did.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>> >I didn't know Prokofiev wrote any string quartets;
>>
>> They are, in my book, a serious contender for the
>> 'best 20th century music' award, if such an award
>> could have any meaning.
>
>Better than either Bartok or Schostakovich, I guess you are saying.

Actually I liked what I heard from Schönberg better than from
either of those. My opinion of Shosty has somewhat decreased of
late, and I've never been particularly fond of Bartok. Meanwhile
if you get a chance some really neat string quartets are due to
Othmar Schöck, if you can find them amongst his endless lieder
for baritone and piano (yucky instrumentation, but in general a
very good composer along the lines of Honegger, Milhaud and Poulenc).

>Tell me if you think my page has enough information now.

Much better. By the way, though I haven't listened in depth
yet (my cans decided to poop out on me last week), these sound
amazing!

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Actually I liked what I heard from Schönberg better than from
> either of those. My opinion of Shosty has somewhat decreased of
> late, and I've never been particularly fond of Bartok.

Shosty's quartets are excellent, and Bartok's are the best thing he
did.

Meanwhile
> if you get a chance some really neat string quartets are due to
> Othmar Schöck, if you can find them amongst his endless lieder
> for baritone and piano (yucky instrumentation, but in general a
> very good composer along the lines of Honegger, Milhaud and
Poulenc).

I've heard some nice stuff from him, but no string quartets.

> >Tell me if you think my page has enough information now.
>
> Much better. By the way, though I haven't listened in depth
> yet (my cans decided to poop out on me last week), these sound
> amazing!

How did you deconstruct your headphones? They are pretty sturdy
usually.

I'm working on a porcupinized Mahler 7 in parallel with the Bifrost
version, and I hope Joe will forgive me, and let me add it to the
page. It will end up using quite a lot of 22-equal. I wonder if Paul
has listened to any of this 22/Pajara/Porcupine lunacy. Paul?

🔗czhang23@aol.com

In a message dated 2004:01:05 12:51:38 AM, gwsmith@svpal.org writes:

> [... ] I start with midi files and massacre them in various ways using the
>above programs and hand editing or Maple computations.

Massacre? Sounds like my approach - sans all the toys in the toybox ya
have ::glarin' envious ferret-look on face... "Oh shiney shiney..."::
Can I hear some of ya MIDI roughs at least till I get this blinkin' Ogg
Drop to work (I keep gettin' a system error 10 on me bonkie Mac... and just
what in the bleu-frikkin'-blaaz'z is a system error 10) 0_o?

> A great deal can be done simply using Scala and Audio Compositor alone.

Hmmm... ::makes note to self to try SCALA again on the "new" Frankenstein
MacMonster ::
Is AC Mac-friendly? Data and website linkie much needed and,
additionally, any advice duly appreciated...

>> P.S. In particular, I loved the Brahms Symphony #2 and the Ravel
>>String Quartet---two of my all time favorites...I'd like to see what you
>>would do with some Widor or Vierne organ works, in particular the Widor
>>Toccata, and the Vierne Organ Symphony #6 slow mvt.

lil buncha suggestions - from old Classical & western to Asian-influenced
& New and to "Deep" and traditional Asian (Viva Wabi-Sabi!):

Biber - _Harmonia articiosa-ariosa_;
11th Sonata of the Mystery (or Rosary) Sonatas

Buxtehude- _Praeludium in g_ (m.126 in Bb minor);
_Praeludium in e_

Mozart - _Wurfelspiel ("Musical Dice Play")_

Bartok - _Contrasts for Violin, Clarinet, and Piano_ (Sz. 111);
_Mikrokosmos_

Debussy - "Nuages"

Satie - _Vexations_ (ok, just some "cells" from _that_ organism)

Messiaen - _Sept Haiki_

Prokofiev - _2nd Symphony_

John Cage- _In a Landscape_

Crumb - _Makrokosmos_ series
_Black Angels (13 Images from the Dark Land)_;
_11 Echoes of Autumn_;

Tan Dun - "Act 1. Bach, Monks, and Shakespeare Meet in Water" from _Ghost
Opera_;
- "Insert 1: Animals at full moon" from _Death and Fire -
Dialogue with Paul Klee_

Lou Harrison - "Netzahualcoyotl fabrikas Piramidon" en _Pacifika Rondo_

Ge Gan-Ru - _Gu Yue (Ancient Music)_

Lydia Ayers - _Deep Structure of Chinese Culture_

traditional - _Deep Night (Beijing Opera)_ as arranged by Li Min-Xiong
and recorded on the Naxos World CD, _Yim Hok-Man: Poems of Thunder_ for erhu,
perc. and opera (instrumental) ensemble

and OK just for fun I hafta, jus' hafta _mention_ this beauty from the Hell
once upon a time called a British Colony in China...

"Boxer Rite 1997" -
_Exorcism of Bad Smells - and Worse Foods - Left by those Silly White
Ghosts and their Hairy Demon Pets_/_Demon-Love Blessing directed towards
Beijing and Entire North Lands: May You Live Long in Interesting Times & Prosper
Far Beyond Your Very Highest Expectations_

funny scary sinotonal electroacoustica and "Industrial Strength"
Neo-Tao-Trad ... a hard-to-near-impossible-to-find cassette* still floatin' around
amongst some "ultra-hard-core" Hong Kong Cantonese who are still Daoist, quite a
bit anarchistic (i.e. the Dada-like "political party" called the United
Cicadas**, radical splinter of the more "acceptable" moderate/democratic United
Ants), and deep into Gung Fu Boxer Mythos [with links to the Northern Californian
_Han Quai Tong_ and the BritishCommonwealth-wide _Shao Lung Tong_ , both
known, badly in English - as being "Yellow Power" movements, *LMBAOROTFF!*]

* most have a slip case with the image of Sun Wu Kong, the Monkey King,
God of the Boxer Rebels and "1997" in easy to read Euro-style numbers (a friend
had a copy with "The One True & Original King Kong" printed in English ... my
ghettoblaster eat my cheap-ass copy...)

** HongKonglish slogan: "We Make Big Noise! We not bloody sil.ANT!"

Where's John Zorn??? he'd love this shit...

---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|
Hanuman Zhang, musical mad scientist & proud to be a _Race Trader_
"Space is a practiced place." -- Michel de Certeau
"Space is the Place for the Human Race." -- William S. Burroughs

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗czhang23@aol.com

In a message dated 2004:01:05 09:12:03 AM, ekin@lumma.org writes:

>>I didn't know Prokofiev wrote any string quartets;
>
>They are, in my book, a serious contender for the
>'best 20th century music' award, if such an award
>could have any meaning.

oh the str4tets he did circa his time in Paris or what?

just a plug here;) the underrated Prokofiev 2nd - "the Symphony of Fire &
Iron" -
IMHO everything the Italian Futurists wanted to do with symphonicism
and then some...

---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|
Hanuman Zhang, musical mad scientist
"Space is a practiced place." -- Michel de Certeau
"Space is the Place for the Human Race." -- William S. Burroughs

"... simple, chaotic, anarchic and menacing.... This is what people of today
have lost and need most - the ability to experience permanent bodily and
mental ecstasy, to be a receiving station for messages howling by on the ether from
other worlds and nonhuman entities, those peculiar short-wave messages which
come in static-free in the secret pleasure center in the brain." - Slava Ranko
(Donald L. Philippi)

The German word for "noise" _Geräusch_ is derived from _rauschen_ "the
sound of the wind," related to _Rausch_ "ecstasy, intoxication" hinting at some
of the possible aesthetic, bodily effects of noise in music. In Japanese
Romaji: _uchu_ = "universe"... _uchoten_ = "ecstasty," "rapture"..._uchujin_ =
[space] alien!

"When you're trying to do something you should feel absolutely alone, like a
spark in the blackness of the universe."-Xenakis

"For twenty-five centuries, Western knowledge has tried to look upon the
world. It has failed to understand that the world is not for the beholding. It
is for the hearing. It is not legible, but audible. ... Music is a herald,
for change is inscribed in noise faster than it transforms society. ...
Listening to music is listening to all noise, realizing that its appropriation and
control is a reflection of power, that is essentially political." - Jacques
Attali, _Noise: The Political Economy of Music_

"The sky and its stars make music in you." - Dendera, Egypt wall
inscription

"Sound as an isolated object of reproduction, call it our collective memory
bank... Any sound can be you." - DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid (a.k.a. Paul D.
Miller)

"Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."
--Arthur C. Clarke, _The Nine Billion Names of God_

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> I'm working on a porcupinized Mahler 7 in parallel
> with the Bifrost version, and I hope Joe will forgive me,
> and let me add it to the page. It will end up using quite
> a lot of 22-equal.

i can't wait to hear it!

... but, i think it would be really great if you could
figure out how to do a 31edo version of Mahler 7, since
i'm convinced that Mahler knew more about meantone than
any of us have suspected.

the only problem is how to deal with the vanishing of
the enharmonic diesis, which doesn't happen in 31edo but
*does* happen in Mahler's score.

(there's an interesting spot at measure 310 where he's
been going along in a sort-of-Eb-major but using lots of
superimposed perfect-4ths, then the high drone in the
violins jumps from Bb to Db, and while they hold that Db,
the horns come in in A-major, using a written C# against
that Db.

this whole passage eventually leads to an F# dominant-7th
chord, which in turn leads into the awesomely beautiful
B-major section which is perhaps the most breathtaking
moment in all of music.

the passage i'm referring to goes from around 12:25
to beyond 14:00 in my mp3. the C#/Db thing is at 12:59,
the breathtaking moment is at 13:52.)

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/mahler/mahler7th.htm

(and again for some reason the link is not working right now.)

-monz

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:

> Massacre? Sounds like my approach - sans all the toys in the
toybox ya
> have ::glarin' envious ferret-look on face... "Oh shiney
shiney..."::
> Can I hear some of ya MIDI roughs at least till I get this
blinkin' Ogg
> Drop to work (I keep gettin' a system error 10 on me bonkie Mac...
and just
> what in the bleu-frikkin'-blaaz'z is a system error 10) 0_o?

Until someone comes out with a midi player that supports MTS, there's
no way to hear the midi as it is tuned. What you need is an Ogg
player for the Mac anyway, not Ogg drop.

I'd appreciate feedback on these or other Ogg Vorbis players for Mac:

http://mint.unsanity.com/

http://240plan.ovh.net/~ibisroug/404/oggvorbis/mac.php

http://www.newfreeware.com/graphics/2059/

> > A great deal can be done simply using Scala and Audio Compositor
alone.
>
> Hmmm... ::makes note to self to try SCALA again on the "new"
Frankenstein
> MacMonster ::
> Is AC Mac-friendly? Data and website linkie much needed and,
> additionally, any advice duly appreciated...

AC is extremely Mac-unfriendly. However, Timidity is cheaper (being
free), faster, and more flexible. I don't use it too much because
when you put AC on a high quality setting, it gives better results,
but Timidity is great once you get past the propellor-beanie setup.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi Gene,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm working on a porcupinized Mahler 7 in parallel
> > with the Bifrost version, and I hope Joe will forgive me,
> > and let me add it to the page. It will end up using quite
> > a lot of 22-equal.
>
>
>
> i can't wait to hear it!
>
> ... but, i think it would be really great if you could
> figure out how to do a 31edo version of Mahler 7, since
> i'm convinced that Mahler knew more about meantone than
> any of us have suspected.

Obviously the only way to be sure of doing this right is to enter in
the score with all the correct accidentals, because any existing MIDI
files will have ignored the difference between G# and Ab, etc.

> the only problem is how to deal with the vanishing of
> the enharmonic diesis, which doesn't happen in 31edo but
> *does* happen in Mahler's score.
>
>
> (there's an interesting spot at measure 310 where he's
> been going along in a sort-of-Eb-major but using lots of
> superimposed perfect-4ths, then the high drone in the
> violins jumps from Bb to Db, and while they hold that Db,
> the horns come in in A-major, using a written C# against
> that Db.

Well then he probably *wasn't* thinking 31-equal, but may have simply
wanted to preserve most of its superior concordance most of the time.
I'd suggest that a John deLaubenfels 5-limit (with no chord files, of
course) adaptive retuning, with some appropriate balance of spring
strengths, will get you close to the best solution here.

Otherwise, you could make some editorial changes to the score, like
letting the jump be from Bb to C# (very close to a 6:7 frequency
ratio in 31-equal). Or allow the discordance of C#-against-Db to
remain.

🔗czhang23@aol.com

In a message dated 2004:01:05 08:37:12 PM, ekin@lumma.org writes:

>>Bartok at his best is sublime....I don't like everything, though.
>
>I was reared on the mikrocosmos

me, too
I wish either I had a lil bigger range on my toy piano or that toy pianist
extraordinaire Margaret Leng Tan would do the _mikros_ on toy piano

[. . .] But in general I think the
>on/off syncopation and lydian sounds are a bit canned.

Canned... Can? Krautrock. Niceness...

>Ultimately the melodies and harmonies just don't move me.
>But then, there's no accounting for taste.

tres bien ::sino-gallic shrug::

---
Hanuman Zhang, _Gomi no sensei_ [Master of junk]

"...So what is life for? Life is for beauty and substance and sound and
colour; and even those are often forbidden by law [socio-cultural conventions].
. .Why not be free and live your own life? Why follow other people's rules
and live to please others?..." ~Lieh-Tzu/Liezi, Taoist Sage (c. 450- 375 BCE)

"I'd never dare attack anyone who doesn't think the way I do. Thought is the
property of the person who has it. No one else has a right to even touch it."
- Erik Satie

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗czhang23@aol.com

In a message dated 2004:01:06 10:42:02 AM, ekin@lumma.org writes:

>>>I was reared on the mikrocosmos
>>
>> me, too
>
>Nice to meet you!

LOL. Jeepers we've been at least aware of each other for *gasp!* years
(on lists)...
::sotto voce, aside to alien self:: this lummanescent one is a funny dry
one...

lummanescent? hehe, Monz take note... new chromatic terminology possibility!

>>[. . .] But in general I think the
>>>on/off syncopation and lydian sounds are a bit canned.
>>
>> Canned... Can? Krautrock. Niceness...
>
>I dig Can.
>
>Maybe we should take this over to metatuning. Are you a
>member there?

I am there - I think.

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi paul (and Gene),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > ... but, i think it would be really great if you could
> > figure out how to do a 31edo version of Mahler 7, since
> > i'm convinced that Mahler knew more about meantone than
> > any of us have suspected.
>
> Obviously the only way to be sure of doing this right is
> to enter in the score with all the correct accidentals,
> because any existing MIDI files will have ignored the
> difference between G# and Ab, etc.
>
> > the only problem is how to deal with the vanishing of
> > the enharmonic diesis, which doesn't happen in 31edo but
> > *does* happen in Mahler's score.
> >
> >
> > (there's an interesting spot at measure 310 where he's
> > been going along in a sort-of-Eb-major but using lots of
> > superimposed perfect-4ths, then the high drone in the
> > violins jumps from Bb to Db, and while they hold that Db,
> > the horns come in in A-major, using a written C# against
> > that Db.
>
> Well then he probably *wasn't* thinking 31-equal, but may
> have simply wanted to preserve most of its superior
> concordance most of the time.
>
> I'd suggest that a John deLaubenfels 5-limit (with no
> chord files, of course) adaptive retuning, with some
> appropriate balance of spring strengths, will get you
> close to the best solution here.

yes, i definitely would like to hear a version of the
Mahler 7 in deLaubenfels adaptune.

however ... this piece is Mahler at probably the furthest
edge of his harmonic exploration. none of his later works
have the persistent and almost constant dissonance that's
in the 1st movement of the 7th (except perhaps the "Rondo
Burleske" of the 9th).

he was obviously *very* intrigued by Schoenberg's exploration
of "quartal" harmony (chords built of superimposed perfect
and augment 4ths instead of major and minor 3rds), and
used more quartal harmony in this piece than in any other.
this piece was written during the height of Mahler's
interaction with Schoenberg.

during the same summer (1905) Schoenberg was composing
his 1st Quartet, which is probably the first piece to
contrast tonality with atonality.

so anyway, my point is that interpreting the harmony
of Mahler's 7th in terms of *any* particular more-or-less-simple
tuning system is going be very difficult.

> Otherwise, you could make some editorial changes to the
> score, like letting the jump be from Bb to C# (very close
> to a 6:7 frequency ratio in 31-equal).

that is *certainly* a possibility, and may in fact be
the most probable realization of Mahler's intentions.

there are many places in his scores where he notates
"enharmonically-equivalent" notes between two different
instruments, generally using the accidentals which
bring out the individual melodic lines most clearly,
and the harmonic spelling (and consistency) be damned.

> Or allow the discordance of C#-against-Db to remain.

nah, i don't think so. Mahler was an *extremely* fastidious
conductor, famous for his insistence on precision.

i think the enharmonic difference here (~41 cents in
true 1/4-comma meantone, ~38 cents in 31edo) would be
too large for him to overlook or prefer.

a smaller amount, say a comma or less, perhaps -- it
might give a nice "chorus" effect.

but this is nearly a quarter-tone, and at such a magical
moment in the score, i don't think he'd want that sound.

-monz

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> yes, i definitely would like to hear a version of the
> Mahler 7 in deLaubenfels adaptune.
>
> however ... this piece is Mahler at probably the furthest
> edge of his harmonic exploration. none of his later works
> have the persistent and almost constant dissonance that's
> in the 1st movement of the 7th (except perhaps the "Rondo
> Burleske" of the 9th).
>
> he was obviously *very* intrigued by Schoenberg's exploration
> of "quartal" harmony (chords built of superimposed perfect
> and augment 4ths instead of major and minor 3rds), and
> used more quartal harmony in this piece than in any other.
> this piece was written during the height of Mahler's
> interaction with Schoenberg.
>
> during the same summer (1905) Schoenberg was composing
> his 1st Quartet, which is probably the first piece to
> contrast tonality with atonality.
>
> so anyway, my point is that interpreting the harmony
> of Mahler's 7th in terms of *any* particular more-or-less-simple
> tuning system is going be very difficult.

Of course, "deLaubenfels adaptune" does not such thing. Especially if
you run it with "no chord files". It just springs each consonant
interval to an 'ideal' value, puts on other springs for "horizontal"
considerations, and it's off!

> i think the enharmonic difference here (~41 cents in
> true 1/4-comma meantone, ~38 cents in 31edo) would be
> too large for him to overlook or prefer.
>
> a smaller amount, say a comma or less, perhaps -- it
> might give a nice "chorus" effect.
>
> but this is nearly a quarter-tone, and at such a magical
> moment in the score, i don't think he'd want that sound.

OK, you're probably right about that.