ancient flutes & other tunings

Hi, colleagues:

I read with great interest the excerpts passed on by Greenwich on the
9000-year-old Chinese flute --- with passing reference to the Neaderthal
one. The tunign resulting from the hole spacings are reported to
approximate our diatonic scale. It is said to be intuitive --- that the
octave is based on 8 rather than 5 or 10.

But, if that is the case:

1. How can one account for the widespread use of pentatonic scales? Are
they cultural selections of 5 of the possible diatonic intervals?

2. How can one account for a wide variety of scales that deviate
considerably from the expected intervals --- sounding strange to our ears
--- and seeming to lack the elegant Pythagorean frequency ratios that we
would expect?

Cheers! Peter

dear peter, why are you "expecting" intervals. I think discovery of
whatever you find is better, and why are you "expecting" pythagorean
ratios? These flutes came long before him, right?

Beers! George

>From: "weekswyl" <weekswyl@nbnet.nb.ca>
>
>Hi, colleagues:
>
> I read with great interest the excerpts passed on by Greenwich on the
>9000-year-old Chinese flute --- with passing reference to the Neaderthal
>one. The tunign resulting from the hole spacings are reported to
>approximate our diatonic scale. It is said to be intuitive --- that the
>octave is based on 8 rather than 5 or 10.
>
> But, if that is the case:
>
>1. How can one account for the widespread use of pentatonic scales? Are
>they cultural selections of 5 of the possible diatonic intervals?
>
>2. How can one account for a wide variety of scales that deviate
>considerably from the expected intervals --- sounding strange to our ears
>--- and seeming to lack the elegant Pythagorean frequency ratios that we
>would expect?
>
> Cheers! Peter
>
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colleagues!
I would take any account by the chinese with a grain of salt. After
hearing a set of ancient bells at the museum here with a series of pitches
that had no resemblance to the major scale the chinese govt. reported that
these bells proved that the chinese invented the major scale. They finally
took care of the problem of the non matching tape by RETUNING THE PITCHES TO
A MAJOR SCALE. Now they use it with orchestras!
After this act the people of Anaphoria cut off all diplomatic relations
with China until they forfeit the possession of the bells to Anaphoria or one
of its allies. At that time it will be retuned back to its original tuning.

Anyone who has played a scale with equally spaced notes would realize
that the scale at least approximates a subharmonic series if not an outright
subharmonic series. Looking at the cent measurements are interval sizes
closer to slendro (I am not saying it is slendro). I chalk up the article to
NATURE magazine being the victim of CHINESE PROPAGANDA.

weekswyl wrote:

> From: "weekswyl" <weekswyl@nbnet.nb.ca>
>
> Hi, colleagues:
>
> I read with great interest the excerpts passed on by Greenwich on the
> 9000-year-old Chinese flute --- with passing reference to the Neaderthal
> one. The tunign resulting from the hole spacings are reported to
> approximate our diatonic scale. It is said to be intuitive --- that the
> octave is based on 8 rather than 5 or 10.
>
> But, if that is the case:
>
> 1. How can one account for the widespread use of pentatonic scales? Are
> they cultural selections of 5 of the possible diatonic intervals?
>
> 2. How can one account for a wide variety of scales that deviate
> considerably from the expected intervals --- sounding strange to our ears
> --- and seeming to lack the elegant Pythagorean frequency ratios that we
> would expect?
>
> Cheers! Peter
>
> > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
> tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
> tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
> tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

Peter "weekswyl" wrote,

>It is said to be intuitive --- that the
>octave is based on 8 rather than 5 or 10.

Huh?

>1. How can one account for the widespread use of pentatonic scales? Are
>they cultural selections of 5 of the possible diatonic intervals?

I think they result from inserting a melodic third into each open fourth of
a "tetrachordal" framework. The melodic logic is powerful.

>2. How can one account for a wide variety of scales that deviate
>considerably from the expected intervals --- sounding strange to our ears
>--- and seeming to lack the elegant Pythagorean frequency ratios that we
>would expect?

In purely melodic music, rough approximations of octaves, and usually fifths
and fourths can be expected. More complex intervals are beyond what can be
audibly gleaned from melody alone.

Kraig Grady wrote,

>Anyone who has played a scale with equally spaced notes would realize
>that the scale at least approximates a subharmonic series

You must mean equally spaced holes (or frets).

Yes! I meant equally spaced holes. i musta been equally spaced at the time

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >Anyone who has played a scale with equally spaced notes would realize
> >that the scale at least approximates a subharmonic series
>
> You must mean equally spaced holes (or frets).
>
> > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
> tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
> tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
> tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com