Carl's Premieres

Earlier, in a message to Dave Keenan, Carl typed the following:

> I respectfully disagree. How long do you think it would take
> to get fast with the Hs? Speaking for myself, 2-3 weeks, which
> is a very good lead time for a typical premiere.

I moderately respectfully disagree with Carl, especially with an attempt to calibrate a "typical premiere". Carl, where do you come up with stuff like this??? You aren't a practicing performance composer (i.e. the kind that writes music to be performed by others), and AFAIK you aren't in any kind of group that is an ongoing performance collective that would give you insight into the "typical" time that one has to work up a premiere.

There are *all* kinds of works that are premiered and commissioned, and for all manner of performance, from literal solo performers to full-blown operas. And it is all over the map as far as "lead time", connection with the composer, back-and-forth over notation (and other items), and on and on.

You need to be more careful, especially when there are those of us in the audience that *do* deal with premieres on a somewhat regular basis.

Cheers,
Jon

>> I respectfully disagree. How long do you think it would take
>> to get fast with the Hs? Speaking for myself, 2-3 weeks, which
>> is a very good lead time for a typical premiere.
>
>I moderately respectfully disagree with Carl, especially with an
>attempt to calibrate a "typical premiere". Carl, where do you come
>up with stuff like this??? You aren't a practicing performance
>composer (i.e. the kind that writes music to be performed by others),
>and AFAIK you aren't in any kind of group that is an ongoing
>performance collective that would give you insight into the
>"typical" time that one has to work up a premiere.

I work on a weekly basis with performers, composers, and concert-
throwers around the Bay Area.

>There are *all* kinds of works that are premiered and commissioned,
>and for all manner of performance, from literal solo performers to
>full-blown operas. And it is all over the map as far as "lead time",
>connection with the composer, back-and-forth over notation (and other
>items), and on and on.
>
>You need to be more careful, especially when there are those of us
>in the audience that *do* deal with premieres on a somewhat regular
>basis.

You need to be more careful, when you assume I was trying to
"calibrate" something. I merely said that for me, who has indeed
written and premiered works in concerts, and played in ensembles
that were premiering works, learning such a nominal system would
be feasible.

-Carl

Carl,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> I work on a weekly basis with performers, composers, and concert-
> throwers around the Bay Area.

Yeah? Why don't we ever hear about it??

> You need to be more careful, when you assume I was trying to
> "calibrate" something. I merely said that for me

You used the phrase "a typical premiere" in a manner that did *not* connect itself to the "myself" part of the sentence. You most definitely give the impression that "a typical premiere" is a generalist term, and I find that misleading.

> who has indeed
> written and premiered works in concerts, and played in ensembles
> that were premiering works, learning such a nominal system would
> be feasible.

With the execption of the oft-mentioned brass quintet back east, I have never seen you post a premiere of one of your works, a notice of a concert you were taking part in (either as composer or performer), or any similar events. (I am certainly open to the possibility that I have missed some post, but compared to the active performers/composers on the various lists, yours is a pretty blank slate)

I think you are talking out of your hat, but maybe all you need do is be more clear in your writing. Either that, or start giving some documentation to all this performing, premiering, and composing that you are doing! Credibility is built on a base of trusted knowledge, and your cred in this regard is a thin veneer, at least as far as what appears on the lists.

Maybe what we need to do is have a composition competition, with 6 microtonal keyboard works selected, which you will present in recital in 3 weeks time, all with differing notations. Zellerbach Hall?

Cheers,
Jon

>> I work on a weekly basis with performers, composers, and concert-
>> throwers around the Bay Area.
>
>Yeah? Why don't we ever hear about it??

Because they aren't "microtonal". Nor are they big venue events.
They are mostly chamber music, by-invitation.

>> who has indeed
>> written and premiered works in concerts, and played in ensembles
>> that were premiering works, learning such a nominal system would
>> be feasible.
>
>With the execption of the oft-mentioned brass quintet back east, I
>have never seen you post a premiere of one of your works, a notice
>of a concert you were taking part in (either as composer or
>performer), or any similar events.

That's because I haven't composed a note of music (other than the
oft-mentioned brass *quartet*) since I joined this bloody list in
1997, nor have I performed any publicly, with the exception of two
piano gigs I did in 2000 and a brief stint with the East Bay
Harmony choir.

>I think you are talking out of your hat, but maybe all you need do
>is be more clear in your writing.

Jon, you're worse than me with the projecting, and I never thought
I'd see the likes of that. I was simply trying to say that given
3 weeks I'd be up to doing a kleismic[8] piece of similar difficulty
to a 12-tET piece I would do in the same time. I'm not saying I'd
be a kleismic sight-reading powerhouse, but I don't think the
notation would prevent me from preparing the piece, speaking as an
ex-trumpet player and singer.

Is that better? Or should I turn my head and cough?

>Maybe what we need to do is have a composition competition, with 6
>microtonal keyboard works selected, which you will present in recital
>in 3 weeks time, all with differing notations. Zellerbach Hall?

Preparing one piece and preparing 6 is a bit different, don't you
think? Give me 18 weeks, create and provide a microtonal keyboard
(since none exist), book Zellerbach, and I *will* do it.

-Carl

Hi,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Because they aren't "microtonal". Nor are they big venue events.
> They are mostly chamber music, by-invitation.

I see. So it is a different thing than a premiere with new notation, etc.

> That's because I haven't composed a note of music (other than the
> oft-mentioned brass *quartet*) since I joined this bloody list in
> 1997, nor have I performed any publicly, with the exception of two
> piano gigs I did in 2000 and a brief stint with the East Bay
> Harmony choir.

Hmm. I see.

> Jon, you're worse than me with the projecting, and I never thought
> I'd see the likes of that.

I think we might be a matched set, if *only* in this regard! But I honestly think the mention that you made, which gave the impression that 2-3 weeks to prepare a premiere is 'typical', is the only thing that raised my hackles. I'm not entirely stupid, so maybe you can find it in your soul to consider that it was less than perfectly transparent.

> I was simply trying to say that given
> 3 weeks I'd be up to doing a kleismic[8] piece of similar difficulty
> to a 12-tET piece I would do in the same time. I'm not saying I'd
> be a kleismic sight-reading powerhouse, but I don't think the
> notation would prevent me from preparing the piece, speaking as an
> ex-trumpet player and singer.
>
> Is that better? Or should I turn my head and cough?

No, that makes it perfectly clear. But what on earth caused you to say "typical premiere"? It implies either you give premieres regularly enough to call something about them "typical", or you know enough about the process of preparing for a premiere by others that leads to the same. And I do not think that is a correct statement.

That's all.

> Preparing one piece and preparing 6 is a bit different, don't you
> think?

Not to the composers giving you their parts 3 weeks in advance, blithely unconcerned about the other composers! (just joking)

> Give me 18 weeks, create and provide a microtonal keyboard
> (since none exist), book Zellerbach, and I *will* do it.

I'll schedule the concert to coincide with the day Johnny takes a live listening-acuity test. That way both coasts will be forever changed! :)

I'm clear now, I think (not a reference to L. Ron, believe me...)

Cheers,
Jon

>I think we might be a matched set, if *only* in this regard! But I
>honestly think the mention that you made, which gave the impression
>that 2-3 weeks to prepare a premiere is 'typical', is the only thing
>that raised my hackles. I'm not entirely stupid, so maybe you can
>find it in your soul to consider that it was less than perfectly
>transparent.

I doubt anything I've ever written here was very transparent.

>> I was simply trying to say that given
>> 3 weeks I'd be up to doing a kleismic[8] piece of similar difficulty
>> to a 12-tET piece I would do in the same time. I'm not saying I'd
>> be a kleismic sight-reading powerhouse, but I don't think the
>> notation would prevent me from preparing the piece, speaking as an
>> ex-trumpet player and singer.
>>
>> Is that better? Or should I turn my head and cough?
>
>No, that makes it perfectly clear. But what on earth caused you to say
>"typical premiere"? It implies either you give premieres regularly
>enough to call something about them "typical", or you know enough
>about the process of preparing for a premiere by others that leads to
>the same. And I do not think that is a correct statement.

It was a crack at how composers aren't given enough rehearsal time.
"pretty good for the typical premiere" ... get it? For example,
Retrofit had about 3 hours (literally) from the time the performers
first played it to the last time they played it. They had the parts
3 or 4 weeks in advance, but my 1st trumpet (and group lea) went to
Bermuda on a surprise job literally two days after the parts were
delievered, and my 2nd was doing The Lion King and unreachable. My
Euphonium player was in PA, my horn player still in high school (or
was she already in her freshman year at Julliard? I forget.) etc.

-Carl

In a message dated 12/28/03 3:46:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
JSZANTO@ADNC.COM writes:

> 'll schedule the concert to coincide with the day Johnny takes a live
> listening-acuity test. That way both coasts will be forever changed! :)
>

There's that fist in pacifist. Jon, you are one of the most aggressive
"people" I have ever met on the Internet. It would have been better if we had met
even once on some of my trips out west. I'm assuming you never visit New York
or I would have received a call over the many years.

best, Johnny

In a message dated 12/28/03 4:42:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, ekin@lumma.org
writes:

> It was a crack at how composers aren't given enough rehearsal time.
> "pretty good for the typical premiere" ... get it? For example,
> Retrofit had about 3 hours (literally) from the time the performers
> first played it to the last time they played it. They had the parts
> 3 or 4 weeks in advance, but my 1st trumpet (and group lea) went to
> Bermuda on a surprise job literally two days after the parts were
> delievered, and my 2nd was doing The Lion King and unreachable. My
> Euphonium player was in PA, my horn player still in high school (or
> was she already in her freshman year at Julliard? I forget.) etc.
>
> -Carl

Hi Carl,

I deal with what you describe on almost a daily basis during much of the
year. It seems to me though, that if you had indicated sense above each note, the
players could have better learned their parts on their own. Maybe that is an
important difference.

If the notation was in ratios or required real time comparison's and
listenings, the players had no nope in hell. However, 3 hours is plenty of time for
such a short piece as yours. I think your group took a "John Adams" in that
the players decided to chuck your intentions leaving it to everybody else to
just deal with it ("as if anyone could tell"). I am sorry for your results,
though they played well as 12ers.

The key to rehearsal is to have the players know their parts before the first
rehearsals. Second, there is no available time for special tuning and it
must be succumbed into the "normal" (which is less than needed) rehearsal time.
Many performances get only 3 hours rehearsal total, but each hour is on a diffe
rent day.

best, Johnny Reinhard

Carl,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> I doubt anything I've ever written here was very transparent.

Might want to work on that, then. I know your recent OBFUSCATE acronym was tongue-in-cheek (and really good wit), but maybe you're cleverness gets in the way of communication sometimes.

> It was a crack at how composers aren't given enough rehearsal time.
> "pretty good for the typical premiere" ... get it?

Ah, yeah, but it didn't come off like a crack, it came off like a statement of fact. How you happen to have worked with ensembles and premieres may have not been optimal, but it isn't always that way, and is frequently a lot better situation.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/28/03 3:46:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> JSZANTO@A... writes:
>
>
> > 'll schedule the concert to coincide with the day Johnny takes a live
> > listening-acuity test. That way both coasts will be forever changed! :)
> >
>
> There's that fist in pacifist.

It was a joke.

A joke.

You didn't even recognize the smiley?

I believe both events have the exact same chance of ocurring - nil. And I also believe both of them unnecessary as well.

I also believe that the online microtonal community contains some of the most humorless people I've ever encountered.

Jon