Re: [MMM] CPS on a standard keyboard

Thanks, Carl-BTW, what was your logic for figuring which 2 pitches to remove?

I also notice that there are a lot of similarities to Paul Hahn's 32
consonance scale...a coincidence?

BTW, what is the precise definition of a proper scale? Is it a scale that is
too uneven to be approximated by an equal temperament?

Best,
Aaron.

On Saturday 27 December 2003 04:11 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >Tuners, (maybe Kraig Grady is the expert on this?):
> >
> >Are there any known precedents for 12-pitch-to-the-octave CPS's that
> >would work on a standard keyboard...I'm interested in exploring them
> >in a live improvisational setting.....
>
> Hi Aaron,
>
> Pascal's triangle gives the cards of the CPS scales...
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> 0..................................0 |
> 1...............................1 1 |
> 2............................1 2 1 |
> 3.........................1 3 3 1 |
> 4......................1 4 6 4 1 |
> 5...................1 5 10 10 5 1 |
> 6................1 6 15 20 15 6 1 |
> 7.............1 7 21 35 35 21 7 1 |
> 8..........1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1 |
> 9.......1 9 36 84 126 126 84 36 9 1 |
> 10....1 10 45 120 210 252 210 120 45 10 1 |
> ______________________________________________________________________|
>
>
> As you can see, the only 12s will appear along the edges. These are
> trivial Partchian o- or utonalities. The most interesting CPS are
> usually closer to the center. One could take 2 hexanies and superpose
> them to get 12 notes. Or if you're clever you could perhaps overlap
> two dekanies and find 8 notes that overlap. Erv has a superposed
> dekany scale, which alas has 14 notes...
>
> !
> Union of 2|5 and 3|5 [1 3 5 7 9] dekanies.
> 14
> !
> 21/20
> 9/8
> 7/6
> 5/4
> 21/16
> 7/5
> 35/24
> 3/2
> 63/40
> 5/3
> 7/4
> 9/5
> 15/8
> 2/1
> !
>
> ...but remember you're free to choose the harmonic identities, and
> with this choice you may find a case with more overlaps.
>
> You could also leave out 3 tones of a 15-tone CPS from the 6th row.
>
> Last but not least, here is a very uneven 12-tone scale of mine
> which is derived from the 7-limit stellated hexany (hexany with
> its triads completed to 7-limit o- and utonalities). Specifically,
> the st. hexany has 14 tones, and this simply omits 2 of them...
>
> !
> 12-out-of [4 5 6 7] stellated hexany.
> 12
> !
> 21/20
> 7/6
> 6/5
> 5/4
> 21/16
> 7/5
> 3/2
> 8/5
> 42/25
> 7/4
> 9/5
> 2/1
> !
> ! Carl Lumma, 1998.
> !
> ! e(7-limit)=30, tetrads(7-limit)=6.
> ! Scale is not proper.
> !
> ! 5/4
> ! /|\
> ! / | \
> ! / | \
> ! 7/6---------7/4--------21/16
> ! \'-. /.-'/ \'-.\ .-'/
> ! \ 1/1--/---\--3/2 /
> ! \ /|\ / \ /|\ /
> ! \ | / \ | /
> ! / \|/ \ / \|/ \
> ! / 7/5--------21/20 \
> ! /.-' \'-.\ /.-'/ '-. \
> ! 8/5------\--6/5--/------9/5
> ! \ | /
> ! \ | /
> ! \|/
> ! 42/25
>
> Have fun!
>
> -Carl
>
>
> [MMM info]------------------------------------------------------
> More MMM music files are at http://www.microtonal.org/music.html
> ------------------------------------------------------[MMM info]
>
>
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--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

>Thanks, Carl-BTW, what was your logic for figuring which 2 pitches
>to remove?

IIRC I wanted to keep the most 3:2s. Can you find a pair of
omissions with the same number of chords that is more even?

>I also notice that there are a lot of similarities to Paul Hahn's 32
>consonance scale...a coincidence?

Anything with a maximal or near-maximal number of consonances is
going to need to have a large convex lump (on the lattice) in it
somewhere, so they'll all be pretty similar.

>BTW, what is the precise definition of a proper scale?

Scales such that when you run "show data" in Scala, they are called
"proper". ;)

Har, har. Try:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/proper.htm

-Carl

hi Carl,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> > BTW, what is the precise definition of a proper scale?
>
> Scales such that when you run "show data" in Scala, they are called
> "proper". ;)
>
> Har, har. Try:
>
> http://sonic-arts.org/dict/proper.htm

instead, please use:

http://tonalsoft.com/enc/proper.htm

as i've already been saying, what used to be my
Dictionary of Tuning Terms is in the process of morphing
into the Tonalsoft Encyclopaedia of Tuning.

i still have a lot of work to do on many of the webpages,
but every Dictionary entry is now online at tonalsoft.com,
so please use those URLs. eventually the Sonic-Arts
Dictionary pages will be gone.

-monz

Joe,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> instead, please use:
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/enc/proper.htm
>
> as i've already been saying, what used to be my
> Dictionary of Tuning Terms is in the process of morphing
> into the Tonalsoft Encyclopaedia of Tuning.

You should probably place meta- statements in the pages at sonic arts that would cause the browser to redirect to the tonalsoft site. Would take a few minutes work, yes, but at least you'd know that whichever site they typed in, they would always end up at the tonalsoft site.

I know I could find the code for it somewhere around here, if you needed it...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Har, har. Try:
>
> http://sonic-arts.org/dict/proper.htm

By this definition, strictly proper scales are not proper.

>> instead, please use:
>>
>> http://tonalsoft.com/enc/proper.htm
>>
>> as i've already been saying, what used to be my
>> Dictionary of Tuning Terms is in the process of morphing
>> into the Tonalsoft Encyclopaedia of Tuning.
>
>You should probably place meta- statements in the pages

And probably this would give Google (where I got the link) the
heads-up. Also you should submit your new root url to Google.

-Carl

hi Jon,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> You should probably place meta- statements in the pages
> at sonic arts that would cause the browser to redirect to
> the tonalsoft site. Would take a few minutes work, yes,
> but at least you'd know that whichever site they typed in,
> they would always end up at the tonalsoft site.

thanks, Jon. despite the fact that in the past 5 years
i've created hundreds (perhaps even over 1000) of webpages,
i never really *studied* HTML coding ... i just picked
up what i know as i went along. this is the kind of thing
that i really need right now.

> I know I could find the code for it somewhere around here,
> if you needed it...

yes, please, if you can send it to me that would speed
things along tremendously. thanks.

-monz

hi Carl,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> instead, please use:
> >>
> >> http://tonalsoft.com/enc/proper.htm
> >>
> >> as i've already been saying, what used to be my
> >> Dictionary of Tuning Terms is in the process of morphing
> >> into the Tonalsoft Encyclopaedia of Tuning.
> >
> >You should probably place meta- statements in the pages
>
> And probably this would give Google (where I got the link) the
> heads-up. Also you should submit your new root url to Google.
>
> -Carl

thanks for that tip too; i've submitted it. but it's been
online for a couple of weeks now, and the Tonalsoft homepage
just recently (a few days ago) turned up in Google's search
engine.

BTW, on the subject of that Tonalsoft homepage ... is anyone
(besides me) impressed with the meantone helix in the left
graphic on that page? it was generated by our software from
a regular old flat 2-dimensional 5-limit lattice. in the
actual software, it's fully rotatable in 3 dimensions.
... just a little tease of what we're up to. ;-)

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> BTW, on the subject of that Tonalsoft homepage ... is anyone
> (besides me) impressed with the meantone helix in the left
> graphic on that page?

I sat there staring at it and trying to figure out what the heck
{2,7}-meantone was.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > BTW, on the subject of that Tonalsoft homepage ... is anyone
> > (besides me) impressed with the meantone helix in the left
> > graphic on that page?
>
> I sat there staring at it and trying to figure out what the heck
> {2,7}-meantone was.

it's 2/7-comma meantone. i need to talk to Chris (my programmer)
and find out why it's formatted with the comma instead of
the slash.

but how 'bout the diagram itself?! pretty cool, huh?

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> yes, please, if you can send it to me that would speed
> things along tremendously. thanks.

<meta http-equiv="refresh" content="10; url=http://www.tonalsoft.com/somepage.html">

The above would be inserted in the <head> section of the page at sonic-arts, and would redirect the browser to the page in 10 seconds (this parameter can be changed, as you would suspect, to a shorter value). When moving sites, I would put a place holder page on the old site that included the above, along with content that tells the user that they will be redirected to the new page shortly, or they can click 'here', where you would insert a tag that also goes to the new page if clicked on.

Cheers,
Jon

hi Jon,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > yes, please, if you can send it to me that would speed
> > things along tremendously. thanks.
>
> <meta http-equiv="refresh" content="10;
url=http://www.tonalsoft.com/somepage.html">
>
> The above would be inserted in the <head> section of the page at
sonic-arts, and would redirect the browser to the page in 10 seconds
(this parameter can be changed, as you would suspect, to a shorter
value). When moving sites, I would put a place holder page on the old
site that included the above, along with content that tells the user
that they will be redirected to the new page shortly, or they can
click 'here', where you would insert a tag that also goes to the new
page if clicked on.

OK, thanks, but ... i've already figured that out. see

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/

(but look quickly and closely!)

i was hoping that you had a way that i could redirect
*all* of the old Dictionary pages by putting something
in that directory or changing the "index.htm" page.
yes? no? thanks.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> OK, thanks, but ... i've already figured that out. see

I take your word for it.

> i was hoping that you had a way that i could redirect
> *all* of the old Dictionary pages by putting something
> in that directory or changing the "index.htm" page.
> yes? no? thanks.

Think about it for a minute: if you were to either type an address to a specific page, or click on a link that went to that one, if it didn't have the redirect... how would it send you somewhere else?

The only way this can happen is in a frames-based design, with special 'frame-busting' code that would send a framed page to the top-most level, but that would be not sensible for your frameless site.

You could do all the meta work with a text editor in about 10 minutes. Tops.

Cheers,
Jon

>> i was hoping that you had a way that i could redirect
>> *all* of the old Dictionary pages by putting something
>> in that directory or changing the "index.htm" page.
>> yes? no? thanks.
>
>Think about it for a minute: if you were to either type an address to a
>specific page, or click on a link that went to that one, if it didn't
>have the redirect... how would it send you somewhere else?

Actually, there are ways of doing this. It's how tinyurl works,
etc. My friend knows how to do that, but I don't.

-Carl

>>> i was hoping that you had a way that i could redirect
>>> *all* of the old Dictionary pages by putting something
>>> in that directory or changing the "index.htm" page.
>>> yes? no? thanks.
>>
>>Think about it for a minute: if you were to either type an address
>>to a specific page, or click on a link that went to that one, if it
>>didn't have the redirect... how would it send you somewhere else?
>
>Actually, there are ways of doing this. It's how tinyurl works,
>etc. My friend knows how to do that, but I don't.

One fast and cheap way would be to edit your 404 page to say
something like...

>That document wasn't found.
>
>If you were looking for a sonic-arts Tuning Dictionary page,
>the Tuning Dictionary has moved to...
>
><a href="http://tonalsoft.com/enc/">http://tonalsoft.com/enc/</a>
>
>...please update your bookmarks.
>
>If you were looking for another page at Sonic Arts, try
>browsing from http://sonic-arts.org/

...then delete all your pages. Google should follow the link to
the new pages and people will know what's going on.

-Carl

Monz,

I take it the old domain does not belong to you. Otherwise you could just
point the old and new domains to the same thing (via DNS), and no changes
are needed on individual pages.

Here is an approach that might help simplify life in case this issue comes
up in the future.

If instead of a subdirectory, such as:

mydomain.com/dictionary

you use a subdomain, such as:

dictionary.mydomain.com

then you are free at any time to point the dictionary to any server you
please, whereas this is very difficult to arrange if you use a subdirectory.
Each subdomain gets its own DNS entry and can be pointed individually to a
server. So if you create a big domain and break it up in this way, it
insures you against internal server organizational changes, and allows you
other flexibilities, such as some day assigning a new domain where you
previously used a subdomain. For example dictionary.mydomain.com could some
day become tuningdictionary.com and yet dictionary.mydomain.com could
continue to work "forever".

I know you have perhaps already committed the new URL to be a subdirectory.
But if you host a tunings list someday, I hope you give it this kind of
thought and seek the advice of the community before you create an
organization by which you might inadvertently limit flexibility in some way
that might for example prevent the tunings list hosting to be moved for some
reason to another physical server (for example).

So just to give another example to illustrate the practicality here, even
though this is a moot point now. Even if sonic-arts.org is not your
personal domain, if you had used dict.sonic-arts.org instead of
sonic-arts.org/dict then by a simple arrangement with the owner of
sonic-arts.org you might be allowed to point dict.sonic-arts.org to your new
server on a semi-permanent basis, all without interfering with how
sonic-arts.org might otherwise be used. Then dict.sonic-arts.org and
dict.tonalsoft.com could point via DNS to the same IP address and thus all
old URL's would just continue to work, while you can advertise the new
domain everywhere else and have it work too. I'm not trying to belabor
something from the past here, it just serves as a good example.

-Kurt

on 12/28/03 1:18 PM, Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org> wrote:

>>> i was hoping that you had a way that i could redirect
>>> *all* of the old Dictionary pages by putting something
>>> in that directory or changing the "index.htm" page.
>>> yes? no? thanks.
>>
>> Think about it for a minute: if you were to either type an address to a
>> specific page, or click on a link that went to that one, if it didn't
>> have the redirect... how would it send you somewhere else?
>
> Actually, there are ways of doing this. It's how tinyurl works,
> etc. My friend knows how to do that, but I don't.
>
> -Carl
>
>
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hi Kurt,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:

> Monz,
>
> I take it the old domain does not belong to you.

well ... it sort of *does* belong to me, but Jonathan Glasier
is the actual "guy in charge". but he never does anything
at all with the Sonic Arts website -- that's left entirely
up to me.

Sonic Arts will still host my personal pages, but the technical
tuning stuff and all the former Dictionary entries will be
subsumed into the Tonalsoft Encyclopaedia.

Jonathan isn't working too much with me these days,
and actually is very deeply involved with something
else regarding "sonic art" ... more about that in the
future as it develops ... i'm not really much a part of
it anyways.

> Otherwise you could just point the old and new domains to
> the same thing (via DNS), and no changes are needed on
> individual pages.
>
> Here is an approach that might help simplify life in case
> this issue comes up in the future.
>
> If instead of a subdirectory, such as:
>
> mydomain.com/dictionary
>
> you use a subdomain, such as:
>
> dictionary.mydomain.com
>
> then you are free at any time to point the dictionary to
> any server you please, whereas this is very difficult to
> arrange if you use a subdirectory.
> Each subdomain gets its own DNS entry and can be pointed
> individually to a server. So if you create a big domain
> and break it up in this way, it insures you against
> internal server organizational changes, and allows you
> other flexibilities, such as some day assigning a new
> domain where you previously used a subdomain. For example
> dictionary.mydomain.com could some day become
> tuningdictionary.com and yet dictionary.mydomain.com could
> continue to work "forever".

hmmm ... thanks for all of that. i wish i knew about
it before. really, i'm not too savvy about how webhosts
and servers work. i just know BASIC and elementary HTML
programming.

> I know you have perhaps already committed the new URL to
> be a subdirectory.
> But if you host a tunings list someday, I hope you give it
> this kind of thought and seek the advice of the community
> before you create an organization by which you might
> inadvertently limit flexibility in some way that might
> for example prevent the tunings list hosting to be moved
> for some reason to another physical server (for example).
>
> So just to give another example to illustrate the
> practicality here, even though this is a moot point now.
> Even if sonic-arts.org is not your personal domain, if
> you had used dict.sonic-arts.org instead of sonic-arts.org/dict
> then by a simple arrangement with the owner of sonic-arts.org
> you might be allowed to point dict.sonic-arts.org to your new
> server on a semi-permanent basis, all without interfering with
> how sonic-arts.org might otherwise be used. Then
> dict.sonic-arts.org and dict.tonalsoft.com could point via
> DNS to the same IP address and thus all old URL's would just
> continue to work, while you can advertise the new domain
> everywhere else and have it work too. I'm not trying to
> belabor something from the past here, it just serves as a
> good example.

thanks for all of that, Kurt. indeed, the Dictionary was
created as a subdirectory under sonic-arts.org, and now
i've simply transferred all of those pages to a subdirectory
called "enc" under tonalsoft.com .

even tho i'd prefer to change the directory structure
(and thus the URLs) of my other tuning webpages, for the
sake of expediency i'll have to simply keep the structure
the same as i port all the files and directories to
tonalsoft.com .

but thatnks very much for your sage advice. hopefully,
at some point in the future, i'll streamline all of this
and make everything as concise and as pretty as possible.
in the meantime, i have a lot of work to do on the webpages
to give them our corporate look and feel.

and yes, we do hope to host the tuning list, so your
advice on how to set that up is *most* welcome. for all
major aspects of how the list will work, we want feedback
from the community. in fact, feedback from the tuning
community, on the software and on our website in general,
is integral to how we're going to do things.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> BTW, on the subject of that Tonalsoft homepage ... is anyone
> (besides me) impressed with the meantone helix in the left
> graphic on that page?

As you know, I was very impressed when you guys showed me this
lattice in our correspondence on MSN messenger.

I'm very glad that my persistent carping on the meantone helix idea
at you has borne such delicious fruit.

You guys have done a wonderful job, and I can say this before the
alpha release is even out yet!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> I'm very glad that my persistent carping on the meantone helix idea
> at you has borne such delicious fruit.

Now lets see if my carping on the lattice of 7-limit tetrads ever
makes it in.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> > I'm very glad that my persistent carping on the meantone helix
idea
> > at you has borne such delicious fruit.
>
> Now lets see if my carping on the lattice of 7-limit tetrads ever
> makes it in.

Looking at the Tonalsoft homepage,

http://tonalsoft.com/

I see the *other* item displayed there also resulted directly from my
harassment of Monz: a musical example (selected by Monz) tuned in
Vicentino's adaptive JI scheme. Understanding of this method, though
it's nearly 450 years old, is sorely deficient in the tuning
literature, as evidenced by even recent papers on JI and how
to 'solve' its 'problems' by Jonathan Walker and others.

May Tonalsoft enjoy unbridled success in 2004 and beyond!

-Paul

In a message dated 2003:12:31 09:28:55 PM, my pal paul-E writes:

>May Tonalsoft enjoy unbridled success in 2004 and beyond!

Hear Hear... I think I finally gotta grasp on BlackJack & intrigued like Kiki
the Ferret ["oh shiney oh shiney shiney..."] with Harmonic Entropy intervals
all due to Monz & said site...& of course eavesdroppin's on this here
wonder-filled list...where I have the ultra-convenient honour of havin' nearly all my
fiendish "music guru-sensei" friends & foes on...

---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|
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