Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning key color/pitch determined??

Greetings,

>Why else would EVERY composer and author in the 18th century refer to each

>key's unique color or affect, were it not for the different sizes of

thirds and fifths unique to well-temperaments?

And Manuel writes:

>>But perception of key affect doesn't disappear when equal temperament is

used. >>

This calls for an interesting test. On a keyboard, do different musical
keys have particular affects because of the levers used to play their triad?
Or, does the pitch of a key represent some recognizable , historical tonal area
and those with pitch recognition assign historical baggage to a key because
they recognize the pitch?
Say, what would happen if a piano was tuned in equal temperament, but
1/2 step flat? Would that mean as I played all the white keys, my friend who
recognizes keys would think I was playing in C a step flat, or would they hear
it as simply in B? I have done this, and what happens, every time, is that the
listener recognizes the key of B, even though I am not touching a single
black key! One pianist told me that F# was a very dark key, even in ET. So I am
sitting there playing in G and she is saying, "There, can't you hear how
darker that is than 1/2 step higher in G?" So I modulate up to Ab and she is
adamant how much clearer that is that the "F#." I am not seeing any key recognition
here, other than by pitch.
Assigning 'key character' to the various keys is, IMHO, leftover
baggage. In ET, there are 88 levers, all equidistant apart. It doesn't matter where
you select your combination, the relationships between the notes do not
change.
Now, when I have tuned a well temperament down 1/2 step, the results get
confusing. The temperament-savvy pianists instantly recognize that both the
clarity of C and the biting edge of B or E are not there, and other keys are
similarly alien, save for Eb and A, which are quite similar in WT to their ET
sound. They couldn't stand having not only the pitch wrong for a given key, but
also, the radically different-than-expected tonal quality of the keys. These
key characteristics are working tools for the WT pianists. Misplacing them is
obvious to those musicians that use them.
Some of the non-temperament aware players didn't notice anything at all,
but some of them did mention that the piano seemed a little out of tune, but
they couldn't exactly define why. (clean octaves and unisons are all that most
pianists are sensitive about, which I blame on ET's deadening effect on true
tonal awareness).
The assigned characteristics that go with ET's various keys are real for
those that 'in the zone.' If one hears the key of F# as darker or edgier than
F, then the music will carry that effect for that listener when it moves to
F#, even if all the thirds are the same size. Even Enid Katahn, who played on
our two CD's, and is as temperament aware as any pianist I have seen, says
that when she is using an ET piano in concert, she still "fakes it" and tries to
create the same sense of contrast with her playing.
However, the affective effects (which have been well documented) various
consonance/dissonance in musical intervals is missing in ET and no amount of
interpretation will completely make up for the lack. The sameness has its
value for compositions written from and ET perspective, but its use destroys a
delicate but powerfully affective quality of the music that was written to take
advantage of the differences in a well-temperament. To some, this is no loss,
to others, it is a profound one.
There is something undeniably engaging in an extremely tempered
interval, and something very soothing about a Just one. These musical qualities and
the resulting emotional manipulations that come from their use by the great
composers add a dimension to the music that can't be had any other way. It
follows that I don't think anyone can fully appreciate the keyboard genius of
Beethoven or Haydn without understanding the qualities of a well-temperament.
Hmm, that ain't exactly what I came here to talk about, but it'll have to
be close enough for today.
Regards,

Ed Foote RPT
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
<A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html">
MP3.com: Six Degrees of Tonality</A>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

> This calls for an interesting test. On a keyboard, do different
>musical keys have particular affects because of the levers used to play
>their triad?
>Or, does the pitch of a key represent some recognizable , historical
>tonal area and those with pitch recognition assign historical baggage
>to a key because they recognize the pitch?

I think everyone recognizes the pitch to some extent.

> Say, what would happen if a piano was tuned in equal temperament,
>but 1/2 step flat?

I've had my piano at 415 not infrequently.

>Would that mean as I played all the white keys, my friend who
>recognizes keys would think I was playing in C a step flat, or would they >hear it as simply in B? I have done this, and what happens, every time,
>is that the listener recognizes the key of B, even though I am not
>touching a single black key! One pianist told me that F# was a very
>dark key, even in ET.

Yes, that's right. They're hearing the pitches. It has nothing to do
with the levers or strings you happen to be using.

> Assigning 'key character' to the various keys is, IMHO, leftover
>baggage. In ET, there are 88 levers, all equidistant apart. It doesn't
>matter where
>you select your combination, the relationships between the notes do not
>change.

But the pitches do.

>These key characteristics are working tools for the WT pianists.
>Misplacing them is obvious to those musicians that use them.

Sure.

> Some of the non-temperament aware players didn't notice anything at
>all, but some of them did mention that the piano seemed a little out of
>tune, but they couldn't exactly define why. (clean octaves and unisons
>are all that most pianists are sensitive about, which I blame on ET's
>deadening effect on true tonal awareness).

I can't go this far. Some pianists, though tuning-ignorant, are very
much in touch with the subtleties of the tuning.

As for marketing well temperaments as a panacea, I also cannot endorse.
They are suitable for baroque music, and milder ones for Beethoven and
Chopin, but not for most modern music. With the possible exception of
the Alaska temperaments, which were designed to have no keys worse than
12-equal, and to my knowledge are the only well temperaments that can
reasonably make this claim.

-Carl

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 12/11/03 6:26 AM, a440a@aol.com <a440a@aol.com> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
>> Why else would EVERY composer and author in the 18th century refer to each
>
>> key's unique color or affect, were it not for the different sizes of
>
> thirds and fifths unique to well-temperaments?
>
> And Manuel writes:
>
>>> But perception of key affect doesn't disappear when equal temperament is
>
> used. >>
>
> This calls for an interesting test. On a keyboard, do different musical
> keys have particular affects because of the levers used to play their triad?
> Or, does the pitch of a key represent some recognizable , historical tonal
> area
> and those with pitch recognition assign historical baggage to a key because
> they recognize the pitch?

Historical baggage in the sense you seem to mean is not the only possibility
here.

There could be resonances in the nervous system, for example. There are
clearly some absolute time/frequency references that manifest in the
functioning of the nervous system. The entire body also has its own
resonances, although this seems more likely to vary from person to person,
in terms of absolute tuning.

Our anatomy is also "historical", of course.

-Kurt

key color/pitch determined??

🔗a440a@aol.com

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>