Bach, Werckmeister, 12 tet...

Sorry, I was brought up with the conception that Werckmeister
paved the way for 12 tet, and by this enabled, if not inspired, Bach to create the "Wohltemperierte Klavier" (I dislike the abbreviation WTC for this work.)
It was, for the european music at least, Werckmeister's merit to find a solution to the old question of how to distribute the irregularity between the intervals that we get when tuning e.g. with clean fifths.
The other thing is about the "meaning" of keys, e.g c-minor for "pathetic": I simply think that's a question of getting a tradition, one started with it, others liked it and followed. Remember that Tchaikowski's Symphony No. 6, "Pathetic", is not in c-minor (as Beethovens Sonata), but in b minor. And you find in (yes, again !) Chopin's work a lot of pathetic works that are not in c-minor, so you se the tradition had soon come to an end. Why? Because it was the tuning of that time which was at least at Werckmeisters standard.
SORRY:
Sometimes I get the impression that some of the tuning list members try to "retune music history" as a whole instead of searching for new possibilities to add more sounds, chords, contrapunctual and harmonic features to the music we already have.
If I am wrong here, then please let me know. :-(

As for Chopin: it might of course be interesting what happens to his op. 45 if being played in different tunings...

Bye
Werner

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:

> Sorry, I was brought up with the conception that Werckmeister
> paved the way for 12 tet, and by this enabled, if not inspired,
Bach to create the "Wohltemperierte Klavier" (I dislike the
abbreviation WTC for this work.)

This doesn't explain why WTC I is playable in meantone--though if you
refused to retune you'd need to transpose instead. What, exactly did
Bach have in mind?

In a message dated 12/11/2003 7:45:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gwsmith@svpal.org writes:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:
>
> >Sorry, I was brought up with the conception that Werckmeister
> >paved the way for 12 tet, and by this enabled, if not inspired,
> Bach to create the "Wohltemperierte Klavier" (I dislike the
> abbreviation WTC for this work.)
>
> This doesn't explain why WTC I is playable in meantone--though if you
> refused to retune you'd need to transpose instead. What, exactly did
> Bach have in mind?
>

Hi Gene,

"Wohltemperierte Klavier" is not designed as a concert set of pieces. There
is no implicit direction for ordering them, or even for how many to include at
one time, let alone from which book set (Book I or II).

The fact that one could retune them into meantone seems to be beside the
point. For the true chromaticst, of which Bach was one, one must be able to call
upon any key at any time. Retuning them each and every time would be contrary
to this expectation.

Besides, why argue that a work in all major and minor keys would make good
meantone choices, when a great deal of the inflexibly-tuned organ works are not?
It would be ass-backwards for Bach to do this.

best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/11/2003 7:45:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gwsmith@s... writes:

> > This doesn't explain why WTC I is playable in meantone--though if
you
> > refused to retune you'd need to transpose instead. What, exactly
did

> The fact that one could retune them into meantone seems to be
beside the
> point.

Are you suggesting it's an accident? I think Bach was more musically
aware than that, and that such tuning consistency throughout 12
preludes and 12 fugues, placing Bach under a constrait he by no means
always places himself under, is unlikely to be a chance occurance
anyway.

For the true chromaticst, of which Bach was one, one must be able
to call
> upon any key at any time.

But *not*, apparently, in WTC I.

> Besides, why argue that a work in all major and minor keys would
make good
> meantone choices, when a great deal of the inflexibly-tuned organ
works are not?

Because that happens to be factually true. It could be something as
simple as wanting people who have tuned to meantone to be able to
play them in C, after all.

>> The fact that one could retune them into meantone seems to be
>> beside the point.
>
>Are you suggesting it's an accident? I think Bach was more musically
>aware than that, and that such tuning consistency throughout 12
>preludes and 12 fugues, placing Bach under a constrait he by no means
>always places himself under,

Which works of Bach do have wolf-related problems, no matter where
the tuning is centered?

-Carl

>> Sorry, I was brought up with the conception that Werckmeister
>> paved the way for 12 tet, and by this enabled, if not inspired,
>Bach to create the "Wohltemperierte Klavier" (I dislike the
>abbreviation WTC for this work.)
>
>This doesn't explain why WTC I is playable in meantone

Lots of things may be "playable" in lots of tunings. Really,
Gene I don't know why you keep treating the 'it works' card as
evidence for anything. By the way, I thought your meantone WTC
was not very successful. My friend, who's a pianist and who
can play much of the WTC by heart, cringed upon hearing it.

-Carl

It is to J. Murray Barbour to explain modern conclusions about which keys
sound better or worse cannot be based on sustained harmonies as pertains to Bach.
For, "except at a final cadence, Bach usually avoids sustained triads. Even
subsidiary cadences are often arpeggiated or contain suspensions or other
dissonances" (Barbour, Bach, p. 81).

The use of internal evidence always implies an interpretation model. Unless
such a model is given by external evidence, it must be constructed anew by the
20th-century investigator and is bound to be arbitrary (Rasch, "Does…, p.
26).

Barbour hammers home the conclusion that well temperament is evident for all
organ works using the most conservative of those as prime evidence. "Even in
the Orgelbüchlein, which contains the highest proportion of Bach organ works
with simple compass, the latter are far outweighed by others which would be
sharply dissonant in meantone tunings." Barbour measured the compass of Bach's
organ works as a whole to be Ebb-Cx, 25 degrees (Barbour, Bach, p. 84).

These organ works are pedagogical, written for his son in Cothen, to be a
Dresden and Halle organist, likely in meantone. Heinrich Schütz (1585-1672)
referenced Dresden, Merseburg, and Halle as cities that had adopted his Psalter,
wherein listeners like to follow the texts in their psalm-books, and even sing
along by ear. Praetorius worked in Dresden and Magdeburg (the city ravished
by the 30 Years War and birthplace of meantone-based Telemann). Was not Halle
home to G.F. Handel of the subsemitonium organ keyboard? Did not Johann
Sebastian Bach go to Dresden to have a duel with a French organist, who thereupon
fled with his tail between his legs? Wilhelm Friedemann Bach worked almost
exclusively in the meantone cities of Dresden, Merseburg, and Halle. Friedemann
studied at 15 with JG Graun in Merseburg. Perhaps this is why his father
utilized so many organ works in the Orgelbüchlein reduced to the meantone compass
of notes (e.g., Eb-G#).

As we turn to the organ literature, we find that of the 148 works examined,
only 15 lie completely within the E-flat-G-sharp compass, 12 of these being
chorale preludes in the Orgelbüchlein. Only one in ten would be playable on the
conventionally tuned organ, or only one in thirty-four if we exclude the
Orgelbüchlein! This is an astounding result, not wholly unexpected to an organist
who is familiar with the entire Bach literature, but still remarkable in the
observed ratio (Barbour, Bach, p. 81).

The example of organ music culled from among many represent all periods of
Bach's creative life. "They show no particular trend from youth to old age.
Some of the modulations and chromatic effects referred to in our discussion are
striking and dramatic (Barbour, Bach, p. 85).

best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Lots of things may be "playable" in lots of tunings. Really,
> Gene I don't know why you keep treating the 'it works' card as
> evidence for anything. By the way, I thought your meantone WTC
> was not very successful. My friend, who's a pianist and who
> can play much of the WTC by heart, cringed upon hearing it.

I did a lot of other things besides retuning, as you know. People are
likely to cringe at the jazzy rythems or the soundfonts in some
instances. If you tell me which ones he cringed at, I'll look at the
harmony.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I was brought up with the conception that Werckmeister
> > paved the way for 12 tet, and by this enabled, if not inspired,
> Bach to create the "Wohltemperierte Klavier" (I dislike the
> abbreviation WTC for this work.)
>
> This doesn't explain why WTC I is playable in meantone--though if
you
> refused to retune you'd need to transpose instead. What, exactly
did
> Bach have in mind?

Jorgensen: "In all varieties of the meantone temperaments, one third
of the harmony (eight major and minor triads within each octave)
contains wolf intervals and is therefore too dissonant for normal
usage. This means that meantone temperament is restrictive because in
this one cannot modulate through all the keys."

Ergo one cannot play the '48' in meantone.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Which works of Bach do have wolf-related problems, no matter where
> the tuning is centered?

It would be a big order to enumerate these, and it depends on your
definition of "wolf". Does this mean the wolf fifth, or can it also
refer to sharp thirds? I certainly found things in WTC II which
didn't seem adapted to meantone.

In a message dated 12/11/03 7:13:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gwsmith@svpal.org writes:

> Are you suggesting it's an accident? I think Bach was more musically
> aware than that, and that such tuning consistency throughout 12
> preludes and 12 fugues, placing Bach under a constrait he by no means
> always places himself under, is unlikely to be a chance occurrence
> anyway.
>

Yes, I do. Good music writing in small and short forms (like Preludes and
Fugues)
don't need more than 12 different notes in a piece. In this sense it is an
accident of the usage of scale tones in such pieces that twelve or less notes
are all that are necessary.

> For the true chromaticst, of which Bach was one, one must be able
> to call
> > upon any key at any time.
>
> But *not*, apparently, in WTC I.
>

I'm confused. Why not? I mean, if any key is playable on a single keyboard
in a closed tuning system, like Werckmeister III, "one must be able to call
upon any key at any time."

best, Johnny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> Jorgensen: "In all varieties of the meantone temperaments, one
third
> of the harmony (eight major and minor triads within each octave)
> contains wolf intervals and is therefore too dissonant for normal
> usage. This means that meantone temperament is restrictive because
in
> this one cannot modulate through all the keys."
>
> Ergo one cannot play the '48' in meantone.

Your conclusion does not follow. One can play the first 24 in
meantone so long as one is willing either to retune or transpose.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Jorgensen: "In all varieties of the meantone temperaments, one
> third
> > of the harmony (eight major and minor triads within each octave)
> > contains wolf intervals and is therefore too dissonant for normal
> > usage. This means that meantone temperament is restrictive
because
> in
> > this one cannot modulate through all the keys."
> >
> > Ergo one cannot play the '48' in meantone.
>
> Your conclusion does not follow. One can play the first 24 in
> meantone so long as one is willing either to retune or transpose.

Bach had many instruments - perhaps they were not all tuned in the
same way. We can speculate endlessly but to fully retune in the
middle of a public performance - or to be restricted to a subset that
could be played in a particular tuning seems rather unlikely to me.
Ten minutes of retuning for a single prelude? Surely the whole point
of the '48' was to dispense with all that palaver and to be able to
play any or all of them straight through at a sitting? Especially in
front of a paying audience.

Peter

on 12/11/03 10:42 PM, Peter Wakefield Sault <sault@cyberware.co.uk> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jorgensen: "In all varieties of the meantone temperaments, one
>> third
>>> of the harmony (eight major and minor triads within each octave)
>>> contains wolf intervals and is therefore too dissonant for normal
>>> usage. This means that meantone temperament is restrictive
> because
>> in
>>> this one cannot modulate through all the keys."
>>>
>>> Ergo one cannot play the '48' in meantone.
>>
>> Your conclusion does not follow. One can play the first 24 in
>> meantone so long as one is willing either to retune or transpose.
>
> Bach had many instruments - perhaps they were not all tuned in the
> same way. We can speculate endlessly but to fully retune in the
> middle of a public performance - or to be restricted to a subset that
> could be played in a particular tuning seems rather unlikely to me.
> Ten minutes of retuning for a single prelude?

This point has apparently been brought up again and again. While I'm not
one of the experts, nor are the experts in total agreement by any means, the
10 minutes referred to a full retuning of the instrument from scratch.
Retuning from one already-in-tune meantone to the next meantone in the
circle of 5ths requires only 1/12 the work and there are claims of people
who can do such a key-change tuning on a harpsichord in 60 seconds. It
strikes me that less than 1/12 the time may be required since the direction
and even the rough amount of tuning motion required can become familiar.
Others can clarify the details, and perhaps even raise the "debate" again.

-Kurt

> Surely the whole point
> of the '48' was to dispense with all that palaver and to be able to
> play any or all of them straight through at a sitting? Especially in
> front of a paying audience.
>
> Peter

>Ten minutes retuning a single prelude? Surely the whole point
>of the '48' was to dispense with all that palaver and to be able to
>play any or all of them straight through at a sitting? Especially in
>front of a paying audience.

Yes, I think so. Even though Johnny correctly pointed out that the
48 were not designed as a single performance piece (the first book
was probably mainly used/intended as teaching material, the 2nd
book in my opinion was more in the spirit of the abstract music
typical of the later works such as the Musical Offering and Art of
the Fugue). There's also the key contrast argument -- Bach wrote
more staccato in C# so he intended for the tuning to be (re)centered
there -- which I'm not sure I buy but it's worth a thought.

-Carl

No, the WTC was too early and too provincial for the "paying
audience" development, which would happen for orchestras in Haydn's
late years, first in London, and for solo keyboard music only in
Parisian salons in the middle of the 19te century.

Christoph Wolff describes, in Johann Sebastian Bach: The Learned
Musician:

"Bach's use of Andreas Werckmeister's term "well-tempered" (_wohl
temperirt_) indicates his preference for a slightly modified system
of tuning with "all the thirds sharp", enabling him to play in all
twenty-four keys without losing the characteristic features of
individual keys -- a loss that occurs if the octave is divided into
absolutely equal semitones (what was to become a new standard would
have been regarded then as a serious drawnback)."

"Bach's primary purpose in writing the (WTC), then, was to
demonstrate in practice the musical manageability of all twenty-four
chromatic keys, a system that had been considered only
theoretically"

Gabor

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >Ten minutes retuning a single prelude? Surely the whole point
> >of the '48' was to dispense with all that palaver and to be able
to
> >play any or all of them straight through at a sitting? Especially
in
> >front of a paying audience.
>
> Yes, I think so. Even though Johnny correctly pointed out that the
> 48 were not designed as a single performance piece (the first book
> was probably mainly used/intended as teaching material, the 2nd
> book in my opinion was more in the spirit of the abstract music
> typical of the later works such as the Musical Offering and Art of
> the Fugue). There's also the key contrast argument -- Bach wrote
> more staccato in C# so he intended for the tuning to be (re)centered
> there -- which I'm not sure I buy but it's worth a thought.
>
> -Carl

On Friday 12 December 2003 02:58 am, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >Ten minutes retuning a single prelude? Surely the whole point
> >of the '48' was to dispense with all that palaver and to be able to
> >play any or all of them straight through at a sitting? Especially in
> >front of a paying audience.
>
> Yes, I think so. Even though Johnny correctly pointed out that the
> 48 were not designed as a single performance piece (the first book
> was probably mainly used/intended as teaching material, the 2nd
> book in my opinion was more in the spirit of the abstract music
> typical of the later works such as the Musical Offering and Art of
> the Fugue). There's also the key contrast argument -- Bach wrote
> more staccato in C# so he intended for the tuning to be (re)centered
> there -- which I'm not sure I buy but it's worth a thought.
>
> -Carl

Carl-

The first book of WTC was written as a collection (thought not meant to be
performed as a whole). The second book was a compilation of earlier pieces,
some transposed, and I think some newly written. But in general, the musical
material in book II is older than in book I.....

Best,
Aaron.

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

>No, the WTC was too early and too provincial for the "paying
>audience" development, which would happen for orchestras in Haydn's
>late years, first in London, and for solo keyboard music only in
>Parisian salons in the middle of the 19te century.

Mozart and Beethoven, and I'm sure many others, had paying solo
keyboard gigs.

>"Bach's primary purpose in writing the (WTC), then, was to
>demonstrate in practice the musical manageability of all twenty-four
>chromatic keys, a system that had been considered only
>theoretically"

Not true. Well temperament was out and about.

-Carl

>The first book of WTC was written as a collection

Both were written as collections, and I've read there's evidence
that Bach considered Book I as an imperfect 'draft' of Book II.

>The second book was a compilation of earlier pieces,
>some transposed, and I think some newly written.

Both books contain pieces borrowed from other places in Bach's
output.

>But in general, the musical
>material in book II is older than in book I.....

Not correct to the best of my understanding, but this is not
a Bach list, and I am not a Bach expert.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >No, the WTC was too early and too provincial for the "paying
> >audience" development, which would happen for orchestras in
Haydn's
> >late years, first in London, and for solo keyboard music only in
> >Parisian salons in the middle of the 19te century.
>
> Mozart and Beethoven, and I'm sure many others, had paying solo
> keyboard gigs.
>

First of all, the careers of Mozart and Beethoven take place well
after Bach's death, and both are "big city" (Wien) composers. But
even so, if you look at their concert programs, a "solo keyboardist"
would play a concerto and improvise a fantasia within an orchestral
program. Sonatas and the like were for teaching and private use, via
music-sheet selling.

> >"Bach's primary purpose in writing the (WTC), then, was to
> >demonstrate in practice the musical manageability of all twenty-
four
> >chromatic keys, a system that had been considered only
> >theoretically"
>
> Not true. Well temperament was out and about.
>

But not as composed cycles for keyboard instruments in 24 keys, and
certainly not with the sophistication of Sebastian Bach. Wolff
points out how, in the first book, the common subject of each prelude
adn fugue was nothing other than the topos of the tonality itself.
I.e. the triad in C Dur. R. Rasch has done the most research on this.
(BTW the first such cycle was for the recorder...).

Also, the "news" of well temperament seems to have traveled very
slowly. Haydn learned of it, from Kirnberger via von Sweten in his
last decade, and it shows in his sudden use of many keys, not usual
to meantone.

Gabor

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

>

> > Which works of Bach do have wolf-related problems, no
matter where

> > the tuning is centered?

>

> It would be a big order to enumerate these, and it depends on
your

> definition of "wolf". Does this mean the wolf fifth, or can it also

> refer to sharp thirds? I certainly found things in WTC II which

> didn't seem adapted to meantone.

Among single keyboard collections, which mostly support
meantone, the 4 Duets at the end of Clavierubung 3 include some
stark modulations suggesting ET. I find a clear difference between
the single manual chorales in this book, which always allow a
meantone solution, and the organo pleno versions, which do not. I
don't have text in front of me. To me it's simple. Organs must have
circular temperaments, readily tunable instruments may not.
Meantone provides a richer palette of contrasting tone
combinations than watered down alternatives, and Bach found
more ways to use them than anyone else.
The worst case for meantone in WTC 1 is the B minor Fugue. You
need C but B# happens with G# six or more times, most often
masked by F#. No diminished sixths though, if you tune C through
E#. It is playable and effective, certainly an interesting experience,
my fun today in my hotel in Doha. What's wrong with meantone is
it's limitations, but pushing those limitations is also a tonal resource.

The strangest exception to old keyboard temperament in WTC 2 is
the Ab Major pair, among the last and grandest additions. The
prelude & fugue mirror each other with cadenzas that shift around
to a Gb centered tonality (from Bbb through D), while the
expositions need Cb through E. That's 14 note values, rather
more than the 12 at hand. If you want to accomodate this situation
with a circulating temperament, the mutable key levers are A/Bbb,
and E/Fb, so your widest fifths should be D-A-Fb-Cb, not likely to
be found in any catalogue of Well Temperaments. I think these
books imply a flexibility of tuning beyond any others in our
heritage, which is part of the instructional intent. Before you neuter
a note, let it find its own identity, or something like that.
http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~jolliff
I just bought a nice unfretted clavichord C-d3, very much like a
museum piece contemporary with Bach (Heinitz, 1716), so no more
facile push button tuning for me. We'll see how well I do with a
tuning wrench.