dodecaphonic / Schumann, Chopin, future...

Hi,
it's funny how this discussion goes:
It is clear that Schumann, in his legendary "Neue Zeitschrift fuer Musik" in which he tried to popularize his opinions on good music, he has welcomed Chopin with the words, "Hut ab, meine Herren, ein Genie !" (Hats off, gentlemen, a genius), and enthusiastically branded Chopin's 2nd. Sonata (b-flat minor, op 35), the last movement "that's not music anymore", wishing to say Chopin had reached with that tremendous piece a new realm which will for long not bee understood by mediocre conservative academicians. Yes, it was Schumann who brought Chopin into public interest in the german speaking area. (The other great composer who was grateful for Schumann's publicistic aid was Brahms...)
Actually, I cannot imagine that Chopins beautyful works are in any tuning outside of 12 tet, take his Pr�lude c# minor op 45
with its fantastic modulations being played with any different tuning - it would sooner or later sound completely mistuned.
Sorry, but I do think so.
At that time the "well tempered piano" was absolutely well established. And since that time no manufacturer of musical instruments would think of applying any other tuning than 12 tet.
This is why we may concentrate on our digital friend to realize independently of all limitating influences (and as precisely as we wish) our tuning ideas.
As I will keep on studying my Septatonic Scale.
So far 4 today.
P. S.: I find that discussion of "antisemitism" absolutely out of place in our forum, although I am active member of the "Rock against Racism" movement...

Bye

Werner

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:

(The other great composer who was grateful for Schumann's publicistic
aid was Brahms...)

Some people claim the hats off remark was about Brahms. Maybe he said
it twice. :)

> Actually, I cannot imagine that Chopins beautyful works are in any
tuning outside of 12 tet, take his Prélude c# minor op 45
> with its fantastic modulations being played with any different
tuning - it would sooner or later sound completely mistuned.
> Sorry, but I do think so.

I hope you won't mind if I take that as a challenge?

> At that time the "well tempered piano" was absolutely well
established. And since that time no manufacturer of musical
instruments would think of applying any other tuning than 12 tet.

No one tuned in 12 tet back then.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:
>
> (The other great composer who was grateful for Schumann's
publicistic
> aid was Brahms...)
>
> Some people claim the hats off remark was about Brahms. Maybe he
said
> it twice. :)
>
> > Actually, I cannot imagine that Chopins beautyful works are in
any
> tuning outside of 12 tet, take his Prélude c# minor op 45
> > with its fantastic modulations being played with any different
> tuning - it would sooner or later sound completely mistuned.
> > Sorry, but I do think so.
>
> I hope you won't mind if I take that as a challenge?
>
> > At that time the "well tempered piano" was absolutely well
> established. And since that time no manufacturer of musical
> instruments would think of applying any other tuning than 12 tet.
>
> No one tuned in 12 tet back then.

I will allow that you are speaking of claviers, since ET guitars
existed since the 16th century as I repeatedly keep trying to tell
everyone - a fact apparently also ignored by Jorgensen who restricts
himself to keyboard tunings. However, you still cannot prove that
statement. Sometimes the rest of the world is just a little slow in
catching up with the innovators who, Bach in particular, tuned their
own instruments.

Perhaps we have different views of the purpose of modulation. You
seem to regard it as merely the means to get from one tonal
coloration to another whereas I regard it almost as an end in itself -
what I could perhaps call hypermelodic motion.

hi Peter,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> Perhaps we have different views of the purpose of
> modulation. You seem to regard it as merely the means
> to get from one tonal coloration to another whereas
> I regard it almost as an end in itself - what I could
> perhaps call hypermelodic motion.

[Peter was not responding to me here, but i'm not quite
sure to whom he was responding.]

beginning with the early symphony (Haydn and his
contemporaries) and even moreso with Beethoven's
3rd Symphony ("Eroica"), modulation to a different
key came to play an *essential* role in the unfolding
of the dramatic narrative of sonata-allegro form.

the presentation of the second theme in a key
different from that of the first theme set up a
*conflict*, the resolution of which, by eventually
recapitulating the second theme in the same key as
the first theme in the later part of the movement,
became the whole _raison d'etre_ of sonata form.

it was Beethoven who first really saw the dramatic
possibilities of absolute (that is, non-program) music
by use of this means.

and then it was Wagner who saw the possibilities for
musical commentary during a literary drama (i.e., opera)
that Beethoven had opened up.

i posted something rather long about this a while back.
it's in the archives somewhere.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> Perhaps we have different views of the purpose of modulation. You
> seem to regard it as merely the means to get from one tonal
> coloration to another whereas I regard it almost as an end in
itself -
> what I could perhaps call hypermelodic motion.

I've said nothing whatever about the purpose of modulation.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:

> Actually, I cannot imagine that Chopins beautyful works are in any
tuning outside of 12 tet, take his Prélude c# minor op 45
> with its fantastic modulations being played with any different
tuning - it would sooner or later sound completely mistuned.
> Sorry, but I do think so.

Obviously it's no use providing an example, but I'll give an analysis.
Here is what the program midchord counts as chords for this piece:

M001 4/4: C#m
M002 4/4: A
M003 4/4: F#m
M004 4/4: C#m
M005 4/4: G#
M006 4/4: C#m
M007 4/4: C#m
M008 4/4: C#m
M009 4/4: B
M010 4/4: Bm
M011 4/4: E
M012 4/4: F#m
M013 4/4: D
M014 4/4: D
M015 4/4: GM7
M016 4/4: F#m
M017 4/4: F#m
M018 4/4: F#m
M019 4/4: E
M020 4/4: Em
M021 4/4: Em
M022 4/4: A#
M023 4/4: A#
M024 4/4: Dm
M025 4/4: F#
M026 4/4: F#6
M027 4/4: G#m
M028 4/4: F#
M029 4/4: F#7
M030 4/4: D#
M031 4/4: D#
M032 4/4: D#
M033 4/4: G#
M034 4/4: G#7
M035 4/4: Fm
M036 4/4: F
M037 4/4: F
M038 4/4: A
M039 4/4: A
M040 4/4: C#m
M041 4/4: A#
M042 4/4: F6
M043 4/4: F
M044 4/4: F
M045 4/4: F
M046 4/4: F
M047 4/4: F#6
M048 4/4: C#m
M049 4/4: C#m
M050 4/4: C#m
M051 4/4: C#m
M052 4/4: B
M053 4/4: Bm
M054 4/4: AM7
M055 4/4: C#m
M056 4/4: A7
M057 4/4: A7
M058 4/4: A7
M059 4/4: G#
M060 4/4: Em
M061 4/4: Bm6
M062 4/4: C
M063 4/4: C#m
M064 4/4: C#m
M065 4/4: C#m
M066 4/4: C#mM7
M067 4/4: A
M068 4/4: D
M069 4/4: G#7
M070 4/4: G#
M071 4/4: C#m
M072 4/4: C#m

If I count the major triads, minor triads and seventh chords, I get

F 6 1 0
C 1 0 0
G 0 0 0
D 3 1 0
A 4 0 3
E 2 3 0
B 2 2 0
F# 2 5 1
C# 0 16 0
G# 4 1 2
D# 3 0 0
A# 3 0 0

This is a typical pattern of the kind a circulating temperament works
very well for. Opposite the tonic of C# sits G, for which midchord
counts no major, minor or Dom7 chords at all. It does give a single
GM7, but that's not the sort of chord for which we need worry about
the tuning very much. Grail, which would put a 9/7 as a third here,
would work fine, and certainly less extreme circulating temperaments,
tuned to C#, would be excellent.

> At that time the "well tempered piano" was absolutely well
established.

And didn't mean equal, which completely subverts your entire argument.

And since that time no manufacturer of musical instruments would
think of applying any other tuning than 12 tet.

Not true.