dodecaphonic (was: Hi)

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:14:36 -0500
From: "Dante Rosati" <>
Subject: RE: Re: Hi

> > I am of the opinion that our very souls are dodekaphonic
> > though I realize that may be a contentious statement.

Only Schoenberg and Boulez would agree with you. The rest of the world is penta- and septatonic for the most part.

Dante

Hi,
you do not mean "septatonic", but heptatonic, which would be diatonic actually.
Sorry, but "septatonic" is my scale based on the ratio 8/7 divided by 2, on which I wrote an short note to the mailing list
some weeks ago.
Now to the main argument:
As nearly the whole world is being flooded by music (should I better say MUZAK) that is produced on electronical instruments which are tuned in 12tet,
the traditional tunings are in fact bound to die out.
This I regard as a sort of cultural neo-colonialism.
So the listening is world wide reduced to major / minor scales based on 12 tet. That's for clarity, as I humbly hope.
And here might be one of our issues: to encourage musicians
worldwide to keep up their traditions and to reflect them in the
global mirror.
Bye
Werner

Hi Werner-

I believe "septatonic" and "heptatonic" are both correct to describe a 7
note scale.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wernerlinden@aol.com [mailto:Wernerlinden@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:09 AM
> To: dante@interport.net
> Cc: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] dodecaphonic (was: Hi)
>
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:14:36 -0500
> From: "Dante Rosati" <>
> Subject: RE: Re: Hi
>
> > > I am of the opinion that our very souls are dodekaphonic
> > > though I realize that may be a contentious statement.
>
> Only Schoenberg and Boulez would agree with you. The rest of the
> world is penta- and septatonic for the most part.
>
> Dante
>
> Hi,
> you do not mean "septatonic", but heptatonic, which would be
> diatonic actually.
> Sorry, but "septatonic" is my scale based on the ratio 8/7
> divided by 2, on which I wrote an short note to the mailing list
> some weeks ago.
> Now to the main argument:
> As nearly the whole world is being flooded by music (should I
> better say MUZAK) that is produced on electronical instruments
> which are tuned in 12tet,
> the traditional tunings are in fact bound to die out.
> This I regard as a sort of cultural neo-colonialism.
> So the listening is world wide reduced to major / minor scales
> based on 12 tet. That's for clarity, as I humbly hope.
> And here might be one of our issues: to encourage musicians
> worldwide to keep up their traditions and to reflect them in the
> global mirror.
> Bye
> Werner
>
>
>
>
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:14:36 -0500
> From: "Dante Rosati" <>
> Subject: RE: Re: Hi
>
> > > I am of the opinion that our very souls are dodekaphonic
> > > though I realize that may be a contentious statement.
>
> Only Schoenberg and Boulez would agree with you. The rest of the
world is penta- and septatonic for the most part.
>
> Dante
>
> Hi,
> you do not mean "septatonic", but heptatonic, which would be
diatonic actually.
> Sorry, but "septatonic" is my scale based on the ratio 8/7 divided
by 2, on which I wrote an short note to the mailing list
> some weeks ago.
> Now to the main argument:
> As nearly the whole world is being flooded by music (should I
better say MUZAK) that is produced on electronical instruments which
are tuned in 12tet,

The fact that the world is awash with MUZAK has more to do with
greedy grasping control freaks in the muzak business than it has with
ET. The entire repertoire of Chopin is ET and as Schumann
observed "One little piece by Chopin is worth more than the entire
works of Beethoven." (Mozart? Who he?).

> the traditional tunings are in fact bound to die out.
> This I regard as a sort of cultural neo-colonialism.
> So the listening is world wide reduced to major / minor scales
based on 12 tet. That's for clarity, as I humbly hope.
> And here might be one of our issues: to encourage musicians
> worldwide to keep up their traditions and to reflect them in the
> global mirror.
> Bye
> Werner

hi Peter,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> The fact that the world is awash with MUZAK has more to
> do with greedy grasping control freaks in the muzak business
> than it has with ET.

ah, well ... the dominance of 12-tET in the music we hear
around us every day has a lot to do with "greedy grasping
control freaks" too!

musical instrument manufacterers needed to standardize the
tuning of their instruments in order to mass-produce them,
and so the piles of guitars and electronic keyboards which
come rolling out of the factories are all in 12-tET.

that's a big part of the reason why the MUZAK in our ears
is in 12-tET.

> The entire repertoire of Chopin is ET

um ... not necessarily. there's at least a little evidence
that Chopin preferred well-temperament over 12-tET.

> and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
> is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."

well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.
and anyway, Beethoven opened paths which Chopin followed,
especially in piano music.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi Peter,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > The fact that the world is awash with MUZAK has more to
> > do with greedy grasping control freaks in the muzak business
> > than it has with ET.
>
>
> ah, well ... the dominance of 12-tET in the music we hear
> around us every day has a lot to do with "greedy grasping
> control freaks" too!
>
> musical instrument manufacterers needed to standardize the
> tuning of their instruments in order to mass-produce them,
> and so the piles of guitars and electronic keyboards which
> come rolling out of the factories are all in 12-tET.

I don't think so. Claviers are standardized so we can play them. In
the 'good old days' to which you would like to return, claviers came
in all shapes and sizes and virtually had to be made to fit like
shoes. Meaning you couldn't play the organ down the road in the next
church because it was so different from yours. As with the difference
between classical and steel-string guitars today. You can only learn
to play one to ultimate excellence.

>
> that's a big part of the reason why the MUZAK in our ears
> is in 12-tET.
>
>
>
> > The entire repertoire of Chopin is ET
>
>
> um ... not necessarily. there's at least a little evidence
> that Chopin preferred well-temperament over 12-tET.
>
>
> > and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
> > is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."
>
>
> well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
> composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.
> and anyway, Beethoven opened paths which Chopin followed,
> especially in piano music.
>
>
>
> -monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> um ... not necessarily. there's at least a little evidence
> that Chopin preferred well-temperament over 12-tET.

Where would Chopin have found a piano tuned in 12-et?

> > and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
> > is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."

> well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
> composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.

I doubt Schumann said it. I'd like a citation.

>> > and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
>> > is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."
>
>> well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
>> composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.
>
>I doubt Schumann said it. I'd like a citation.

Me too. Schumann, to my ear, is far more influenced by
Beethoven than Chopin. Perhaps that's why I prefer his
music to Chopin's.

Chopin was genius arranger and pianist who reinvented the
piano. And a rock star. But I don't think much of a composer.

-Carl

Wernerlinden@aol.com wrote:
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:14:36 -0500
From: "Dante Rosati" <>
Subject: RE: Re: Hi

> > I am of the opinion that our very souls are dodekaphonic
> > though I realize that may be a contentious statement.

Only Schoenberg and Boulez would agree with you. The rest of the world is penta- and septatonic for the most part.

Dante

Hi,
you do not mean "septatonic", but heptatonic, which would be diatonic actually.
Sorry, but "septatonic" is my scale based on the ratio 8/7 divided by 2, on which I wrote an short note to the mailing list
some weeks ago.
Now to the main argument:
As nearly the whole world is being flooded by music (should I better say MUZAK) that is produced on electronical instruments which are tuned in 12tet,
the traditional tunings are in fact bound to die out.
This I regard as a sort of cultural neo-colonialism.
So the listening is world wide reduced to major / minor scales based on 12 tet. That's for clarity, as I humbly hope.
And here might be one of our issues: to encourage musicians worldwide to keep up their traditions and to reflect them in the global mirror.

Bye
Werner

Werner,

I totally and heartily agree with your assessment in your very last sentence. Please see an article - in Turksh - mentioned at the following post that appeared on a List targeting the design of a keyboarad instrument that can produce the microtones needed in Turkish maqam music.

You might be able to get around the language barrier by focusing on the charts, sketches and pictures in the article. You might also be able to get the article in English from the author Ozan Yarman if it is available.

Kindest regards,

Can Akkoc.

-----------------------

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the tm-piyanosu
group.

File : /Alla Turka Piyano.pdf
Uploaded by : ozanyarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>
Description : Alla Turka Piyano Projesi

You can access this file at the URL

/tm-piyanosu/files/Alla%20Turka%20Piyano.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

ozanyarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Can Akkoc

can193849@yahoo.com

---------------------------------
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On Monday 08 December 2003 01:54 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >> > and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
> >> > is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."
> >>
> >> well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
> >> composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.
> >
> >I doubt Schumann said it. I'd like a citation.
>
> Me too. Schumann, to my ear, is far more influenced by
> Beethoven than Chopin. Perhaps that's why I prefer his
> music to Chopin's.
>
> Chopin was genius arranger and pianist who reinvented the
> piano. And a rock star.

Whoa!

>But I don't think much of a composer.

Double Whoa!!!! Do you know the Barcarolle or the Fourth Ballade?
They are some of the highest peaks in Western Keyboard literature, or any
instruments literature, in my book....not to mention the 3rd Sonata and the
numerous gem-like mazurkas, which have some harmonically advanced writing....

Let's take all further Chopin talk to metatuning...

-Aaron.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > um ... not necessarily. there's at least a little evidence
> > that Chopin preferred well-temperament over 12-tET.
>
> Where would Chopin have found a piano tuned in 12-et?
>
> > > and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
> > > is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."
>
> > well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
> > composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.
>
> I doubt Schumann said it. I'd like a citation.

It was Schumann who brought Chopin into public recognition.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> > and as Schumann observed "One little piece by Chopin
> >> > is worth more than the entire works of Beethoven."
> >
> >> well, i happen to think Chopin was one of the greatest
> >> composers ever ... but i can hardly swallow Schumann's remark.
> >
> >I doubt Schumann said it. I'd like a citation.
>
> Me too. Schumann, to my ear, is far more influenced by
> Beethoven than Chopin. Perhaps that's why I prefer his
> music to Chopin's.
>
> Chopin was genius arranger and pianist who reinvented the
> piano. And a rock star. But I don't think much of a composer.
>
> -Carl

Schumann and Chopin were contemporaries, along with Mendelssohn.
Schumann was a formal composer where Chopin was an instrumental
composer, the greatest that has ever lived. Your failure to
appreciate this fact simply means you have not listened closely
enough or tried hard enough. It reflects badly upon your judgment.

Peter

hi Peter (isn't there anyone else on the tuning list to
whom i may respond these days?)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > musical instrument manufacterers needed to standardize the
> > tuning of their instruments in order to mass-produce them,
> > and so the piles of guitars and electronic keyboards which
> > come rolling out of the factories are all in 12-tET.
>
>
> I don't think so. Claviers are standardized so we can play
> them. In the 'good old days' to which you would like to return,

that's quite presumptuous of you to say that.

how could *i* possibly want to return to the 'good old days'?!!
i'm the guy writing the microtonal composition software that
we've all been wanting all these years. i see the computer
as the ultimate musical instrument. to claim that i'd like
to see a return to the 'good old days' is totally absurd.

> claviers came in all shapes and sizes and virtually had
> to be made to fit like shoes. Meaning you couldn't play
> the organ down the road in the next church because it was
> so different from yours. As with the difference between
> classical and steel-string guitars today. You can only
> learn to play one to ultimate excellence.

yes, well, my origins as a musician were as a woodwind player,
and i've recently decided to "return to my roots" and have
started rebuilding my collection of woodwind instruments ...
beginning with a bassoon.

now if there's *any* instrument which is temperamental
and has a unique personality, it's the bassoon, far more
so than any organ or other keyboard.

anyway, i get your point ... yes, tuning became standardized
because instrument manufacture became standardized, and
that was something that happened quite a long time ago.

but the total hegemony of 12edo didn't occur until the
beginning of the 20th century ... right around the same
time that Henry Ford invented mass-production. are you
telling me that you really don't see the parallel?

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> It was Schumann who brought Chopin into public recognition.

really? please, give more details. i know that when
Chopin moved to Paris in 1831 he befriended Liszt, Berlioz,
and Mendelssohn. how does Schumann fit in?

-monz

... who wants more data for inclusion into
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm

In a message dated 12/9/2003 2:02:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
monz@attglobal.net writes:

> now if there's *any* instrument which is temperamental
> and has a unique personality, it's the bassoon, far more
> so than any organ or other keyboard.
>

Joe Monzo, are you calling my instrument temperamental? As in the sense of
playable in many different temperaments?

As for unique personality, is not the bassoon the character of the orchestra,
able to put on funny bits and witticisms?

Is not the unique personality, the personality of the performer? Is the
bassoon unique in the sense of its prominence? I will say it is among the least
recognizeable instruments, if not the least recognized.

Johnny Reinhard :)

hi Johnny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/9/2003 2:02:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> monz@a... writes:
>
> > now if there's *any* instrument which is temperamental
> > and has a unique personality, it's the bassoon, far more
> > so than any organ or other keyboard.
> >
>
> Joe Monzo, are you calling my instrument temperamental?
> As in the sense of playable in many different temperaments?

good one! the pun was completely unintended on my part.
:)

> As for unique personality, is not the bassoon the character
> of the orchestra, able to put on funny bits and witticisms?
>
> Is not the unique personality, the personality of the performer?
> Is the bassoon unique in the sense of its prominence? I will
> say it is among the least recognizeable instruments, if not
> the least recognized.
>
> Johnny Reinhard :)

what i really meant by "unique personality" was that, moreso
than most other instruments (the many that i can play a bit,
anyway), each individual bassoon has its own quirks, with
which the performer must come to terms in order to play well.

i.e., there might be six or seven different fingerings for
the same high note, and on any given bassoon some will work
better than others.

i think a lot of it has to do with the narrow bore of the
bassoon. with the other wind instruments, which have a
wider bore and larger tone-holes, the air pretty much escapes
from the first open hole nearest the mouthpiece/reed.

but because the bassoon's bore is so narrow considering its
length of ~7.5 feet, and also the small diameter of the
tone-holes *and* the length of wood thru which they are
drilled, much of the air on any given bassoon note continues
to travel down the tube past the first open hole. hence
the need for all kinds of "vent" keys and all those weird
fingerings.

i'll repeat here my request for links or references to
any good work that's been done on the acoustics of
reed instruments.

Hall's book on acoustics states that double-reeds and
brass instruments are acoustically identical. does anyone
know how applicable research on the trumpet is to the
oboe and bassoon?

-monz

In a message dated 12/9/2003 11:50:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,
monz@attglobal.net writes:

> what i really meant by "unique personality" was that, moreso
> than most other instruments (the many that i can play a bit,
> anyway), each individual bassoon has its own quirks, with
> which the performer must come to terms in order to play well.

Monz, I think the bigger issue is the quality of the instrument. The
professional Heckel, Puchner, or Fox is more stable than you have described. Besides
a professional AND tuned bassoon, the reed must match the instrument, and the
player must match both. My hunch is you are playing on student instruments
that by their very nature are not very in tune. If you don't have at least
$5,000 to plunk down (and that's for the better, used instrument), you can't
prognosticate about the weirdness of bassoons.

My microtonal fingerings hold up for all professional-level bassoons. There
are usually a couple of notes only that don't immediately comply.

>
> i.e., there might be six or seven different fingerings for
> the same high note, and on any given bassoon some will work
> better than others.

It is true that it will seem tougher to switch between bassoons than, say,
saxophones or flutes. Part of that is the difference in simplicity between the
instruments.

> i think a lot of it has to do with the narrow bore of the
> bassoon. with the other wind instruments, which have a
> wider bore and larger tone-holes, the air pretty much escapes
> from the first open hole nearest the mouthpiece/reed.
>

Well, I don't want to focus too much on the "boring" issues, but I do not
think the bore has much to do with the pitch. It is more pertinent to the
volume, or lack there of.

> but because the bassoon's bore is so narrow considering its
> length of ~7.5 feet,

8 feet, contras at 16 feet.

and also the small diameter of the > tone-holes *and* the length of wood thru
> which they are drilled, much of the air on any given bassoon note continues
> to travel down the tube past the first open hole. hence
> the need for all kinds of "vent" keys and all those weird
> fingerings.

The venting is the bassoon's way of substituting for an octave key. Ventings
are ways to ease large skips between notes. But I'm sure you mean we all
vent, to let off some steam. :)

Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > It was Schumann who brought Chopin into public recognition.
>
>
> really? please, give more details. i know that when
> Chopin moved to Paris in 1831 he befriended Liszt, Berlioz,
> and Mendelssohn. how does Schumann fit in?
>

Let me quote from the 'Oxford Companion to Music', 10th Ed.

"[Schumann] also engaged in journalism, founding and editing a
musical paper which fought powerfully against the weaknesses and
follies of the musical life of the day, and did enormous service by
leading into the lighted circle of public recognition Chopin and some
lesser yet worthy composers who might, without such help, have
lingered much longer in outer darkness."

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> i'll repeat here my request for links or references to
> any good work that's been done on the acoustics of
> reed instruments.
>
> Hall's book on acoustics states that double-reeds and
> brass instruments are acoustically identical. does anyone
> know how applicable research on the trumpet is to the
> oboe and bassoon?
>
>
>
> -monz

I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but in any case, you
may visit this link:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/pipes.html

Double-reeds, opposed to clarinet, are closed cones, rather than
closed cilynders. Hence, their acoustical proerties are more similar
to brass instruments.

Max.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> Schumann and Chopin were contemporaries, along with Mendelssohn.
> Schumann was a formal composer where Chopin was an instrumental
> composer, the greatest that has ever lived. Your failure to
> appreciate this fact simply means you have not listened closely
> enough or tried hard enough. It reflects badly upon your judgment.

The usual comments about Schumann are exactly the same as the ones
about Chopin--that his orchestration needs work, his large formal
structures are not of the best, but that he is brilliant when writing
freely for solo piano. I leave to you the question of whether any of
this is actually true, but there is an obvious resemblence.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Schumann and Chopin were contemporaries, along with Mendelssohn.
> > Schumann was a formal composer where Chopin was an instrumental
> > composer, the greatest that has ever lived. Your failure to
> > appreciate this fact simply means you have not listened closely
> > enough or tried hard enough. It reflects badly upon your judgment.
>
> The usual comments about Schumann are exactly the same as the ones
> about Chopin--that his orchestration needs work, his large formal
> structures are not of the best, but that he is brilliant when
writing
> freely for solo piano. I leave to you the question of whether any
of
> this is actually true, but there is an obvious resemblence.

If you are talking about Chopin's orchestrations, then we are in
complete agreement. At least he tried. However, so far as his
instrumental work is concerned I stick by my stated opinion, in which
I am far from alone.

Schumann himself is clearly not in the same class as Mendelssohn, who
some argue is superior even to Mozart. Unlike the case of Chopin, to
whom no one, not even Liszt, comes near in terms of pure instrumental
composition, the relative merits of the formal composers Mozart,
Beethoven and Mendelssohn are more difficult to establish. I myself
think there is little value in even trying but that is what academics
are paid for so I will leave it to them to fill the shelves with
their arguments.

However, I would have been honoured to have been in Schumann's
company, as I am sure you would have been too.