recent sine-tone stuff

>harmonic entropy -- Particularly for tones outside the upper-middle
>register, the lack of harmonics will make it more difficult for the ear to
>discern precisely what frequency ratios are being heard; therefore the
>uncertainty parameter in the harmonic entropy calculations should be
>increased considerably.

I thought the "uncertainty paramenter" was based on Goldstein's experiment,
which was done using sine tones... no?

>remember, pitch resolution is poor (I would say in the 50 cent ballpark)
>with sine waves (experiment: play a familiar melody (just one voice) in
>several different tunings using sine waves. Give yourself a blind test if
>possible. Can you hear the difference?).

I admit that I haven't been able to generate anything even close to a sine
tone in my house or apartment. I'd love to take such a test, and I would
be surprised -- downright astonished -- if I couldn't tell the difference.

>In all, if your carillon is truly producing sine waves, I suspect you will
>find it rather unmusical, a poor demonstration of JI, and probably rather
>annoying to the ear.

This has got to take the non-sequitur cake for the last few issues of
digest. Darren, I doubt you'll wind up with sine tones, considering the
parking-lot horns you'll be playing the thing thru, but even if you do,
there isn't a shred of reason to believe the carillon couldn't be a
wonderfully musical and satisfying instrument. I can't imagine someone
failing to notice it was alternately tuned. As for being a poor
demonstration of JI, well... so were most of Partch's instruments. Utonal
chords fun compositionally? You bet. Even without them, the otonal chords
will enjoy the common-tone arrangement of the diamond.

-C.

Carl Lumma:
>This has got to take the non-sequitur cake for the last few issues of
>digest. Darren, I doubt you'll wind up with sine tones, considering the
>parking-lot horns you'll be playing the thing thru

Carl,

How would the horn PA's generate anything more than what the bars generate
themselves? Unless you mean difference and summation tones.

Darren

>How would the horn PA's generate anything more than what the bars generate
>themselves? Unless you mean difference and summation tones.

I've never been able to get a sine tones out of a cone speaker in a normal
room. I don't know exactly why that is, but I suspect PA horns would be
worse rather than better. I would guess that the bodies of the horns will
resonate with their own harmonics, at least.

-C.

I wrote,

>>harmonic entropy -- Particularly for tones outside the upper-middle
>>register, the lack of harmonics will make it more difficult for the ear to
>>discern precisely what frequency ratios are being heard; therefore the
>>uncertainty parameter in the harmonic entropy calculations should be
>>increased considerably.

Carl Lumma wrote,

>I thought the "uncertainty paramenter" was based on Goldstein's experiment,
>which was done using sine tones... no?

Yes, and the value of the parameter I like to use (1%) was based on the performance
in the optimal frequency range, a narrow one in the middle-upper register. The
parameter rapidly increases outside that range. Most musical instuments produce
harmonic partials in this range, so the 1% can be assumed to apply across a wide
range of frequencies. But for sine tones, one gets no help from harmonic partials,
so the relevant parameter value will usually be quite a bit higher.

>>remember, pitch resolution is poor (I would say in the 50 cent ballpark)
>>with sine waves (experiment: play a familiar melody (just one voice) in
>>several different tunings using sine waves. Give yourself a blind test if
>>possible. Can you hear the difference?).

>I admit that I haven't been able to generate anything even close to a sine
>tone in my house or apartment. I'd love to take such a test, and I would
>be surprised -- downright astonished -- if I couldn't tell the difference.

Or try tuning two sine generators, alternating so that you can't hear the interval
harmonically, to a familiar interval. I think you'll be astonished as to how far
off you'll be.

>>How would the horn PA's generate anything more than what the bars generate
>>themselves? Unless you mean difference and summation tones.

Carl Lumma wrote,

>I've never been able to get a sine tones out of a cone speaker in a normal
>room. I don't know exactly why that is, but I suspect PA horns would be
>worse rather than better.

Harmonic distortion (every audio component should come with a total harmonic
distortion rating) creates difference tones, summation tones, and overtones
(which can be viewed as summation tones of a note with itself, or with its
own overtones). PA horns probably don't have the lowest THD.

>I would guess that the bodies of the horns will
>resonate with their own harmonics, at least.

Remember, the resonant frequencies of the horn can only determine selective
amplification characteristics -- they won't add new harmonic content to the
signal (except in transients).