sine tones and tuning concepts

Hey folks,

I am nearing completion of the my solenoid-driven matrix carillon. It's 99
steel bars will be mounted and struck in such a way as only the lowest
partial will sound, each bar producing a sine tone. The scale will be two
normalized octaves of the 8 by 8 matrix. 1/1 = 192 hertz.

I would like to see a discussion of how the following tuning terms (from
monzo's online dictionary) would apply to the music derived from such an
instrument. My basic understanding is that many of the harmonic
interactions would not apply when pure sine tones are involved. Given this,
how might one go about describing the theory of a music that would be played
on the carillon?

harmonic entropy
consonance/dissonance
roughness
critical band
harmonic complexity

consonance/dissonance -- applies differently to sine tones, because:

harmonic entropy -- Particularly for tones outside the upper-middle
register, the lack of harmonics will make it more difficult for the ear to
discern precisely what frequency ratios are being heard; therefore the
uncertainty parameter in the harmonic entropy calculations should be
increased considerably.

roughness -- for sine tones there is only roughness around the 1:1 since
there are no upper partials to interfere with one another. However, if they
are played loud enough, non-linear combination tones (Joe Monzo should add
these to his dictionary -- they include difference tones) will acheive
minumum roughness/beating at small integer ratios. Since the sensitivity of
this effect to fine-tuning is much greater than that of other
consonance/dissonance effects, and the other effects are weak or absent with
sine waves, many people find it easiest to tune very precise JI intervals
with loud sine waves.

harmonic complexity -- I don't think Wilson cared much about harmonics

critical band -- it is what it is

Additionally:

studies have shown that subjects perceive a melodic octave with sine waves
to be most in-tune at about 1210 cents in the middle register, and even
wider in the extreme registers.

>Given this,
>how might one go about describing the theory of a music that would be
played
>on the carillon?

Most importantly, with sine waves only otonal constructions make sense,
since both combination tones and harmonic entropy are fundamentally otonal
in nature (roughness is normally "partial" to both otonal and utonal chords,
when tones with harmonic partials are involved). Utonal constructions may be
fun compositionally but won't be maximizing consonance in any way when one
is dealing with sine waves.

Glen Peterson claimed that when difference tones weren't being produced, he
found otonal and utonal chords to be equally consonant using sine waves. I
suspect that, given the complex chords he was using (though he hasn't yet
replied to verify exactly what chords he was using), the central pitch
processor (where harmonic entropy happens) was pretty confused -- remember,
pitch resolution is poor (I would say in the 50 cent ballpark) with sine
waves (experiment: play a familiar melody (just one voice) in several
different tunings using sine waves. Give yourself a blind test if possible.
Can you hear the difference?). So the primary factor in the consonance of
the two chords was the roughness, which was about the same for the two
chords since they had similar spacing.

In all, if your carillon is truly producing sine waves, I suspect you will
find it rather unmusical, a poor demonstration of JI, and probably rather
annoying to the ear.

Paul and the list,

Ok, so another way of saying this is that all that fine gradation of pitch
provided by a 49 tone scale is for naught when the pitches are sine tones.

What do the rest of y'all think?

Darren
Gainesville, FL

>
>In all, if your carillon is truly producing sine waves, I suspect you will
>find it rather unmusical, a poor demonstration of JI, and probably rather
>annoying to the ear.
>

Play on dear brother. Sins are some of the best ways to hear a tuning. I doubt
if they are pure sines anyways. assumptions like this (when i have made like
ones) tend to bite me in the butt.
Play and let us know what you think!!!!!
what was the 49, I'm not sure!

Darren Burgess wrote:

> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
>
> Paul and the list,
>
> Ok, so another way of saying this is that all that fine gradation of pitch
> provided by a 49 tone scale is for naught when the pitches are sine tones.
>
> What do the rest of y'all think?
>
> Darren
> Gainesville, FL
>
> >
> >In all, if your carillon is truly producing sine waves, I suspect you will
> >find it rather unmusical, a poor demonstration of JI, and probably rather
> >annoying to the ear.
> >
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

Yes! play on dear brother. I think a carillon is way cool.

So maybe the bars will sound bad, so? I'm sure they will make more metal
if you ask nice.

It may be obvious to state, but you could build this thing so that the bars
are easily removed and replaced.

One could then try out new tunings later. No?

Keep up the good work, send me a tape, I can't wait to hear it ringing out.

Carol-on, brother!

Kraig,

Thanks for the balancing view. The scale is the 49 tone normalized 8x8
matrix, harmonics 8 to 15, subs 8 to 15. Two octaves make 99 tones.
1/1=192

I wonder if sines really are good way to hear the subtleties of a tuning??
Why do you believe this? If the listener can't tell the 3/2, played
harmonically or melodically, from the 22/15 or or 20/13, then somethings is
lost in the music, I would think.

Actually, Paul has caused me to consider scraping the ideas of using bars
and instead going with steel strings. Of course the task of retuning 99
strings brings its own set of problems, although my basic design can remain
the same.

I am nearly certain they are pure sines. The bars are mounted at the .22
nodes with velcro and will be struck with a soft tipped solenoid striker. I
can hear the third partial very faintly, but it decays very quickly.

BTW, the following aspects of the instrument are complete:

- 5 shielded pickup assemblies, 20 coils each
- 8 by 16 matrix keyboard and all wiring including a junction box
- plans for board to mount the bars on

And the following are still in the works:

- case for the keyboard (will be wood)
- construction of mounting boards
- cutting and tuning of bars
- assembly of all components
- installation in an outbuilding in Gainesville, including large PA speakers
on the roof.
- purchase of a keypress to midi converter and a midi to solenoid drive
converter ($800) (from www.midiator.com)

>
>Play on dear brother. Sins are some of the best ways to hear a tuning. I
doubt
>if they are pure sines anyways. assumptions like this (when i have made
like
>ones) tend to bite me in the butt.
>Play and let us know what you think!!!!!
>what was the 49, I'm not sure!
>

Darren Burgess wrote:

> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
>
> Paul and the list,
>
> Ok, so another way of saying this is that all that fine gradation of pitch
> provided by a 49 tone scale is for naught when the pitches are sine tones.
>
> What do the rest of y'all think?

I find sine tones beautiful and look forward to hearing your instrument.

note for Paul: go run around the block a few times
and maybe burn off some of that negativity.

> --

* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Gentlepeople,

Thankyou for rallying around to support the direction of my project.

Frankly, though, its not support that I was hoping for, but information.
Paul E. seems to be making a valid point, that something is lost when one
reduces musical pitches to sine tones. I would be interested in reading a
debate about this issue.

I had successfully devised a method to tune the partials of each bar to 1/1,
3/1, and 5/1 but the length of time required for each bar (1-2 hours,
minimum) is prohibitive given the arrival of my first baby in December. So
I resorted to plan B and will mount the bars to generate sines.

Thanks for the support and encouragement. I expect the project to be
complete within three months.

Darren
Gainesville FL

>From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
>Darren Burgess wrote:
>
>> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
>>
>> Paul and the list,
>>
>> Ok, so another way of saying this is that all that fine gradation of
pitch
>> provided by a 49 tone scale is for naught when the pitches are sine
tones.
>>
>> What do the rest of y'all think?
>
>I find sine tones beautiful and look forward to hearing your instrument.
>
>
>
>note for Paul: go run around the block a few times
>and maybe burn off some of that negativity.
>
>> --
>
>* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
>* xouoxno@virtulink.com
>*
>* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
>* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
>*
>* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
>
>
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Darren Burgess wrote:

> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
>
> Kraig,
>
> Thanks for the balancing view. The scale is the 49 tone normalized 8x8
> matrix, harmonics 8 to 15, subs 8 to 15. Two octaves make 99 tones.
> 1/1=192

a diamond then

>
>
> I wonder if sines really are good way to hear the subtleties of a tuning??
> Why do you believe this?

I share company with Wilson,Wolf,& Young having found it the most fruitful
method of look ing at a tuning because you have a minimal; of things going on.
less clashes of upper partials. etc.

> If the listener can't tell the 3/2, played
> harmonically or melodically, from the 22/15 or or 20/13, then somethings is
> lost in the music, I would think.

I really think that everyone mentioned would hear the difference w/o any
difficulty. Actually I think also David Beardsley and Pat Pagano have also used
Sines? over to you fellas!.........

>
>
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote:

> I really think that everyone mentioned would hear the difference w/o any
> difficulty. Actually I think also David Beardsley and Pat Pagano have also used
> Sines? over to you fellas!.........

Yep. Aside from trying La Monte's vertical chords out
and other ji drones, I used sines in Somber and the
the Tyranny of Equal Temperament.

Less overtones mean that you have a clearer perception
of the ij ratio. You only hear the ratio not the beating
of the overtones.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

In a message dated 9/18/99 9:04:02 PM,
>From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
>Kraig Grady wrote:
>
>> I really think that everyone mentioned would hear the difference w/o any
>> difficulty. Actually I think also David Beardsley and Pat Pagano have also
used
>> Sines? over to you fellas!.........
>
>Yep. Aside from trying La Monte's vertical chords out
>and other ji drones, I used sines in Somber and the
>the Tyranny of Equal Temperament.
>
>Less overtones mean that you have a clearer perception
>of the ij ratio. You only hear the ratio not the beating
>of the overtones.

some others who have used sine waves (oscillators):
Alvin Lucier, MaryAnne Amacher, AND John Cage!!!

I usta have a DeVry Institute "Signal Generator" that
I could get some VERY basic sounds out of... sinewaves,
square & sawtooth. By touching the bare wires & resistors
on the breadboard, I could get the basic sounds to modulate
& "crackle"... also shift in subtle pitch & timbral directions...
great drone machine.
Too bad my mother sold it in a garage sale.

zHANg

David Beardsley wrote,

>Darren Burgess wrote:

>> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
>
>> Paul and the list,
>
>> Ok, so another way of saying this is that all that fine gradation of pitch
>> provided by a 49 tone scale is for naught when the pitches are sine tones.
>
>> What do the rest of y'all think?

>>I find sine tones beautiful and look forward to hearing your instrument.

>note for Paul: go run around the block a few times
>and maybe burn off some of that negativity.

Excuse me fellows, but there was no negativity in my original post. In fact, I would
say that the 49-tone scale than Darren Burgess wishes to use would be capable of
fascinating and beautiful combination-tone phenomena in conjunction with sine
tones, particularly if the simultaneities came from the otonalities. A 3/2 could be
easily distinguished from nearby intervals harmonically due to low-order combination
tones. The fine gradations of pitch would by no means be "for naught".

PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM wrote:

> David Beardsley wrote,
> >> From: "Darren Burgess" <dburgess@acceleration.net>
> >
> >> Paul and the list,
> >
> >> Ok, so another way of saying this is that all that fine gradation of pitch
> >> provided by a 49 tone scale is for naught when the pitches are sine tones.
> >
> >> What do the rest of y'all think?
>
> >>I find sine tones beautiful and look forward to hearing your instrument.
>
> >note for Paul: go run around the block a few times
> >and maybe burn off some of that negativity.
>
> Excuse me fellows, but there was no negativity in my original post. In fact, I would
> say that the 49-tone scale than Darren Burgess wishes to use would be capable of
> fascinating and beautiful combination-tone phenomena in conjunction with sine
> tones, particularly if the simultaneities came from the otonalities. A 3/2 could be
> easily distinguished from nearby intervals harmonically due to low-order combination
> tones. The fine gradations of pitch would by no means be "for naught".

Maybe you should run for some kind of office Paul.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

darren wrote

> that something is lost when one
> reduces musical pitches to sine tones. I would be interested in reading a
> debate about this issue.
>

Well i would debate that the only thing lost is the un-needed portion.

darren wrote

>> that something is lost when one
>> reduces musical pitches to sine tones. I would be interested in reading
a
>> debate about this issue.

Pat Pagano wrote

>Well i would debate that the only thing lost is the un-needed portion.

Don't want to inflame anyone, but I just want to point out the vast
differences of opinion within the tuning community. Sethares' book (a work
of no mean scholarship) is pretty much based on the assumption that the only
reason one would want approximations to just intervals is to reduce
roughness between harmonic overtones. This point of view dates back to
Helmholtz. And yet Pagano, who uses just intervals, sees the harmonic
overtones as un-needed. There could not be two more opposite points of view.
But clearly both men are serious about creating music.

I have spent years listening to xenharmonic intervals and chords, mostly in
synthesized timbres, and studying the psychoacoustic literature. My best
attempts to understand what I hear in relation to the studies done on
experimental subjects have led me to a certain point of view. But I cannot
remove my own musical background and peculiarities of my auditory system
from the picture. My advice to anyone serious about exploring these issues
is to listen to as many different combinations of timbres and tunings as
possible, and try to listen objectively.

> . And yet Pagano, who uses just intervals, sees the harmonic
> overtones as un-needed. There could not be two more opposite points of view.
> But clearly both men are serious about creating music.
>

for tuning i think that seperate sines are easier then a series generated from a
different wave. i prefer to use sine waves in composition as well and construct
a series so to speak with multiple sines sounding simultaneously. That is why i
was so drawn to the Lambdoma Keyboard as it plays sines AS the pitch and the
reduction to such a simplicity enables a more maneuverable complexity in other
highly ambient domains.
arf she said.
Pagano

>> [Kraig Grady, TD 321.23]
>>
>> Actually I think also David Beardsley and Pat Pagano have
>> also used Sines? over to you fellas!.........
>
> [David Beardsley, TD 321.24]
>
> Yep. Aside from trying La Monte's vertical chords out
> and other ji drones, I used sines in Somber and the
> the Tyranny of Equal Temperament.

And to great effect.
I'm particularly fond of _tToET_ (Dave, do you have that
on CD yet?). _Somber_ is a wonderfully moody ambient piece.

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo Philadelphia monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
--------------------------------------------------

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Joe Monzo wrote:

> > [David Beardsley, TD 321.24]
> >
> > Yep. Aside from trying La Monte's vertical chords out
> > and other ji drones, I used sines in Somber and the
> > the Tyranny of Equal Temperament.
>
> And to great effect.
> I'm particularly fond of _tToET_ (Dave, do you have that
> on CD yet?). _Somber_ is a wonderfully moody ambient piece.

Thanks. tToET is in a bit of limbo now-a-days. I don't
have a copy of the original and the 20 min recording
I did last spring is sitting in a drawer, I can't decide
if I like that version. At 20 min it's a bit shorter than
I think it should be and I'd like to record a longer version.

Maybe I'll get around to spiffing it up this fall or winter.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

And to actually answer Joes question, No. tToET is
not on CD.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm