Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning wind instruments

I was wondering if anyone on the board has experimented with making
microtonal or just intonation wind instruments (simple ones of
course). I've been trying to figure out stuff about this issue. I
read what Chris Foster says about it and some others (I haven't
ordered Bart Hopkins' book yet) but I still get confused on a lot of
things.
I know it's probably easiest to make a flute and there's even a
calculator for it on the e.m.i. site. But how can I use the
information in making f.ex. a tube with a saxophone/clarinet/oboe
kind of mouthpiece.

Also, are there any kinds of microtonal wind instruments on the
market (I've seen one concert flute that has extra buttons on it and
I've seen quarter-tone trumpet players credited on arabian cd's,
what is that by the way?)

🔗burkni3 <steini@7.is>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

May I add that all well-educated wind instrument players tune their tones
according
to the harmonic situation. Higher or deeper than equal temperament.
If they wouldn't do so, all orchestra and chamber music would sound much
worse.
And they do so with the usual instruments.
(Besides, a wind instrument is not tuned to equal temperament. It is tuned
to a "somehow" temperament and you cannot play a wind instrument without
having
learned to control the frequencies...)
Indeed, there are some limits. The deepest octave of a bassoon, clarinet,
oboe, flute
is very immovable. And recorders have a problem, too.

Werner
-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: burkni3 [mailto:steini@7.is]
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2003 02:35
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] wind instruments

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 11/28/03 2:36:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wmohrlok@hermode.com writes:

> The deepest octave of a bassoon, clarinet, oboe, flute
> is very immovable. And recorders have a problem, too.
>

Hi Werner,

Thanks for providing this perspective on wind instruments, that woodwinds can
play through different fingerings.

This ma surpass you, but wind players have conquered the deep octaves and
recorders as well. Recorders, and to a limited extent respond well to resizings
of the tone holes through adhesive tape (e.g., scotch tape).

Additionally, over time, one can master partial shadings, as well as partial
depressions of keys in order to achieve a specific microtone. There is all
the technique of glottal dropping and the shifting of the tonal pocket down and
up in pitch trough wind velocity and/or embouchure.

best, Johnny Reinhard
bassoon and recorder player

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Hi Johnny,

... from bassoon player to bassoon player:

Indeed, but with the deepest tones of our instrument all these means are
problematic. Shifting upwards is simple in comparision. But shifting
downwards,
can cause that the tone breaks. Think at our deepest H (B) or C# or D.

(Thank you for the english/ french word "embouchure". The german word for
this is
"Atemstï¿½tze" and I didn't know until now how to translate this.)

I think we have both the same ideas. I only want to say: With the higher
tones
it is simple to do so (at least fpr well educartzed and trained
instrumentalists)
and with the deepest it is difficult or sometimes impossible.

Do you agree?

Kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Afmmjr@aol.com [mailto:Afmmjr@aol.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2003 17:11
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: AW: [tuning] wind instruments

In a message dated 11/28/03 2:36:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wmohrlok@hermode.com writes:

The deepest octave of a bassoon, clarinet, oboe, flute
is very immovable. And recorders have a problem, too.

Hi Werner,

Thanks for providing this perspective on wind instruments, that woodwinds
can play through different fingerings.

This ma surpass you, but wind players have conquered the deep octaves and
recorders as well. Recorders, and to a limited extent respond well to
resizings of the tone holes through adhesive tape (e.g., scotch tape).

Additionally, over time, one can master partial shadings, as well as
partial depressions of keys in order to achieve a specific microtone. There
is all the technique of glottal dropping and the shifting of the tonal
pocket down and up in pitch trough wind velocity and/or embouchure.

best, Johnny Reinhard
bassoon and recorder player
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

Hi Werner,

> ... from bassoon player to bassoon player:

Finally, another bassoonist on the tuning list.

> Indeed, but with the deepest tones of our instrument all these means are
> problematic.

There only degrees of difficulty. Weren't all notes difficult at first?

W: Shifting upwards is simple in comparison.

J: I would suggest "simpler in comparison." This is only because it seems
that whatever goes up can go down. If we can Gils up, it is just the degree
of difficulty that will take out the friction of glassing down. It's easier,
at some point, when your mind is focused on the gesture and not on notes at
all. When the gesture is complete in the mind, and there has been some previous
downward glassing attempted, the brain will grow to account for this higher
degree of difficulty. It may not seem especially reliable, and you many not
get it every time, but you will get it when you in need of it.

But shifting downwards, > can cause that the tone breaks. Think at our
> deepest H (B) or C# or D.

Yes, it's true, these are harder to effect. After all, we are not celli.

> (Thank you for the english/ french word "embouchure". The german word for
> this is
> "Atemstütze" and I didn't know until now how to translate this.)
>
> I think we have both the same ideas. I only want to say: With the higher
> tones
> it is simple to do so (at least fpr well educartzed and trained
> instrumentalists)
> and with the deepest it is difficult or sometimes impossible.
>
> Do you agree?
>

Are you kidding? It's like finding a twin on the internet!

warm regards, Johnny Reinhard

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "burkni3" <steini@7...> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone on the board has experimented
> with making microtonal or just intonation wind instruments
> (simple ones of course). I've been trying to figure out
> stuff about this issue. I read what Chris Foster says about
> it and some others (I haven't ordered Bart Hopkins' book yet)
> but I still get confused on a lot of things.
>
> I know it's probably easiest to make a flute and there's
> even a calculator for it on the e.m.i. site. But how can
> I use the information in making f.ex. a tube with a
> saxophone/clarinet/oboe kind of mouthpiece.
>
> Also, are there any kinds of microtonal wind instruments
> on the market (I've seen one concert flute that has extra
> buttons on it and I've seen quarter-tone trumpet players
> credited on arabian cd's, what is that by the way?)

John Fonville, who teaches flute and composition at UCSD,
plays a quarter-tone flute, which has loads of extra keys.

you'd be interested in reading Patrick Ozzard-Low's book
_21st Century Orchestral Instruments_:

http://www.c21-orch-instrs.demon.co.uk/

this book reviews a lot of basic tuning concepts in a
concise manner, and gives a detailed examination of concepts
concerning microtonal orchestral instruments.

i met Patrick when he passed thru San Diego a few
years ago, and i recall that he really liked 41edo
(or 41-ET if you prefer).

i think you'll really enjoy his book.

-monz

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Werner and Johnny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

> Hi Johnny,
>
> ... from bassoon player to bassoon player:

Werner, i'd really love to hear you play.

i studied bassoon long ago and have just recently
gotten one and am about to revisit an old love. ;)

Johnny is simply incredible. i've never heard any other
bassoonist get the sounds he gets from his bassoon.
one of my favorite examples is his ability to play
microtonal triads by himself.

if you ever have an opportunity to see him play, you should.
he visits Europe often.

-monz

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Fine, now we are three bassoon players and we
may create an own fraction.

I propose Johnny as president, you as vice-president (sorry)
and me as the member who has to pay the membership fees.

My bassoon is neglected grace to the Hermode Tuning project.
It is incredible, Hermode Tuning once ago was created in order
to have a musical instrument accompaining me with a good reference
intonation.
Now Hermode Tuning is more or less ready, but writing letters,
creating contacts and all means to push it into the market
prevent me to do this what my intention was.

Nevertheless

kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: monz [mailto:monz@attglobal.net]
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. November 2003 10:50
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [tuning] wind instruments

hi Werner and Johnny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

> Hi Johnny,
>
> ... from bassoon player to bassoon player:

Werner, i'd really love to hear you play.

i studied bassoon long ago and have just recently
gotten one and am about to revisit an old love. ;)

Johnny is simply incredible. i've never heard any other
bassoonist get the sounds he gets from his bassoon.
one of my favorite examples is his ability to play
microtonal triads by himself.

if you ever have an opportunity to see him play, you should.
he visits Europe often.

-monz

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Werner,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

> Fine, now we are three bassoon players and we
> may create an own fraction.
>
> I propose Johnny as president, you as vice-president (sorry)
> and me as the member who has to pay the membership fees.

um ... uh ... i haven't played a bassoon since 1977.
i don't know how well you play, but i'm a *long* long
way from being able to jam with Johnny on bassoon.

> My bassoon is neglected grace to the Hermode Tuning project.
> It is incredible, Hermode Tuning once ago was created in order
> to have a musical instrument accompaining me with a good reference
> intonation.
> Now Hermode Tuning is more or less ready, but writing letters,
> creating contacts and all means to push it into the market
> prevent me to do this what my intention was.
>
> Nevertheless
>
> kind regards
>
> Werner

i know exactly what you're saying, Werner. i had barely
touched my dear woodwinds for years because of my interest
in tuning theory and in my software project, and then my
instruments were all stolen and so they were completely gone.

i've had a flute (which was the one woodwind i didn't learn
in younger days, altho i was a great recorder player) and
a couple of clarinets for about a year, and have just
recently replaced my oboe, bought a better clarinet, and
also my eager-awaited bassoon.

i mainly got encouraged to do this because many of my
students have joined the school bands and so now play
clarinet, sax, or oboe in addition to piano.

... and of course, i've been encouraging *them* to play
these instruments, since it's a window into microtonality
which the piano doesn't easily provide!

;-)

(hey, i said *easily* ... so those of you who want to
quickly rejoin that pianos can be tuned in meantone or
well-temperament please take note.)

-monz

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

[was: wind instruments]

on 11/29/03 4:33 AM, monz <monz@attglobal.net> wrote:

> i mainly got encouraged to do this because many of my
> students have joined the school bands and so now play
> clarinet, sax, or oboe in addition to piano.
>
> ... and of course, i've been encouraging *them* to play
> these instruments, since it's a window into microtonality
> which the piano doesn't easily provide!
>
> ;-)
>
> (hey, i said *easily* ... so those of you who want to
> quickly rejoin that pianos can be tuned in meantone or
> well-temperament please take note.)
>
> -monz

Yes, and has anyone succeeded in making use of the pitch bend of a
clavichord for microtonal purposes?

I'm about to acquire a clavichord. So I'm curious.

-Kurt

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 11/29/03 4:33 AM, monz <monz@attglobal.net> wrote:

> i mainly got encouraged to do this because many of my
> students have joined the school bands and so now play
> clarinet, sax, or oboe in addition to piano.
>
>
> ... and of course, i've been encouraging *them* to play
> these instruments, since it's a window into microtonality
> which the piano doesn't easily provide!

I just discovered that in the lowest notes on my piano I can simulate
quarter-tones by playing two adjacent notes simultaneously. Unfortunately
this only seems to work well up through the lowest F key. That is it only
works on the lowest 9 notes on the piano (yielding 17 quqrtertones). Above
that the intermediate note doesn't seem to be heard, but rather the upper
note seems to dominate the pitch.

Interesting to "note", anyway. I'm curious whether the cross-over point
(where this stops working) varies on different pianos, or if it is a rather
fixed limit. Anyone interested in trying this and reporting back?

-Kurt