Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Hermode Tuning

Hi to all,

I am a new member of this tuning group and I want to introduce myself and
the
subject of "Hermode Tuning".

My name is Werner Mohrlok. I created in common with my son Herwig in 1988
our first tuning program. Our idea was to create a program for electronic
musical
instruments adjusting the frequencies of the performed music "on the flight"
to just intonation - without any additional message of the musician.
Besides the retuning steps should be inaudible and the level of the
frequencies should stay near to equal temperament.

Analysing interval and chord structures and retuning them to just intonation
is more or less simple. But to do so for live music, holding the retuning
steps
inaudible and the positions near to equal temperament required a new idea in
the
position method.
Our new idea was to combine a virtual line (the line of equal temperament)
with a virtual point: The tuning center of every analysed chord structure.
If you want to understand this, please visit our website:
www.hermode.com
You will find the describtion of this basic idea on the end of
"How does Hermode Tuning work?"
This basic idea is protected by international patents.

For all who look for new own or other ideas in program controlled
temperament:
Please open the "historical" part of our sites. At the end of this you will
find
at the chapter "Software driven tunings" the description of four different
ideas
how to create self-regulating tuning programs. Shown by musical examples
and diagrams. The forth of them is our "Hermode Tuning". You will be aware
why we are proud of our idea.

Meanwhile Hermode Tuning presents not only one program variation but
many different so-called "modes". Modes with "only" pure thirds and fifths,
modes including the natural sept. Modes with inequal high tuned
chords (with so-called key character), variations with different
degree or "depth" of tuning.

Hermode Tuning actually is an internal feature of
- the synthesizer "Q" of Waldorf. www.waldorf-music.de
- the synthesizer "Virus" of Access. www.kemper-digital.com
- as a feature in church organs of Content. www.content-organs.com
soon in
- the virtual synth "z3ta+" of RGCaudio. www.rgcaudio.com
- in one of the leading sequencers
- in virtual instruments of Native instruments
- in so called "Chorleiter" keyboards

Kind regards

Werner Mohrlok
Hermode Tuning
Hohenbergstr. 16
D 78647 Trossingen
Tel +49 7425 6529
Fax +49 7425 6336

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

> instruments adjusting the frequencies of the performed music "on
the flight"
> to just intonation - without any additional message of the musician.
> Besides the retuning steps should be inaudible and the level of the
> frequencies should stay near to equal temperament.

For some pieces, including almost everything written before 1800, the
basic "fixed" tuning is better chosen as something different from
equal temperament, and the retuning steps can, as as result, often be
made considerably smaller -- in my experience, often making the
difference between audibility (say at 11 cents) and inaudibility (at
6 cents). While John deLaubenfels' marvelous adaptive tuning system
(adaptune.com) determines the optimal fixed tuning with calculations
on the piece as a whole -- obviously impossible in real-time -- with
a little information about the types of harmonic tricks that one is
going to exploit in the piece, a real-time approach could do much
better than simply keeping the frequencies near equal temperament.
>
> Analysing interval and chord structures and retuning them to just
intonation
> is more or less simple. But to do so for live music, holding the
retuning
> steps
> inaudible and the positions near to equal temperament required a
new idea in
> the
> position method.
> Our new idea was to combine a virtual line (the line of equal
temperament)
> with a virtual point: The tuning center of every analysed chord
structure.

This sounds identical to the method of John deLaubenfels' early real-
time retuning program, _JI Relay_. John's subsequent work, however,
did not concern real-time adaptive tuning, so no improvements have
been made so far to JI Relay.

Looking forward to discussing further when I have more time,
Paul

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Audibility of retuning steps...
begins at very clear sounds and frequencies of 400 - 2.000 Hz at 4 Cents!!!
And with "frequencies" you have not only to consider the partial tone 1 of a
musical tone
but, too, the partial tones 2,3 .... if they will sound very distinct.
Hermode Tuning weights this in its "horizontal" mode.

A basic fixed tuning...
One of our "modes" considers, too, the harmonic center of a musical piece.
As a result of this it sets an unequal temperament as basis and adds reduced
harmonic-specific retuning messages.
This is the mode "HMT-adaptive" and I agree, for baroque music it sounds
very convincing.
As soon as romantic music with quick changing harmonic center is played in
this mode,
this mode equals the basic temperament and increases the harmonic-specific
messages.

keeping near to equal temperament...
You know perhaps (or not) that in an orchestra there is the same situation:
The piano has a fixed near to equal temperament. The orchestra groups
against this
tune to just or near-to-just intonation. The sound result is much better
than an
"all equal temperament".
(We have performed a sound example at our website. See at "examples"
the "Charpentier" musical example. First Horns with Hermode Tuning,
harpsichord
in equal temperament, than both in equal temperament).
What I want to say: Hermode Tuning is created for practical aims and for
making
music in common with equal tempered instruments.
Indeed, we have, too, other technologies for experimental tuning. But this
is
not the place to describe them.

John deLaubenfels...
If he would do the same, we both would have a problem. But I don't believe
so.

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2003 04:16
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

> instruments adjusting the frequencies of the performed music "on
the flight"

Looking forward to discussing further when I have more time,
Paul

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🔗Bill Sethares <sethares@ece.wisc.edu>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
> Hi to all,
>
> I am a new member of this tuning group and I want to introduce myself and
> the subject of "Hermode Tuning".

Hi Werner and welcome. Some of us had run across your website earlier - very nice
job, with slick presentation. And I'm especially happy to see that you are finding
commmercial success (in the Waldorf and other synths).

I hope that you'll be able to fill us in a but more about your system functions. You'll
find a very appreciative audience here for anything to do with just intonation (I believe
this is the same as what your web site calls "harmonic tuning") and other forms of
alternative tunings. What your website seems to be lacking (maybe I missed it?) is an
explanation of how the chords are analyzed so as to come up with the appropriate
retuning.

In fact, we have had active discussions over the years about ways to accomplish
similar things. For example, John deL's system uses a spring-mass paradigm where all
the notes are connected together with "JI springs." An algorithm then adjusts the
tuning of all the notes so as minimize the tension on the springs. My own
"adaptive tuning" system operates by minimizing a measure of the "sensory
dissonance" (roughness) of all the simultaneously sounding notes. Interestingly, both
of these systems behave the same as in the example on your website of the retuning
of the C major chord from its default 12-tet into a just chord. I'm sure that in detail
the systems must be different, while in simple cases they are the same.

In any case, I would very much like to understand the basis of the hermode tunings
operation...

--Bill Sethares

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Hi Bill,

thank you for your kind answer.

1. Analysing chords is very simple and I didn't know that this could be a
question.
All actual "Note On" are projected on one the twelve positions of one octave
from C to B.
Than -
1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0 is a C major chord,
0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0 is an A minor chord
0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1 is a G major sept chord
and so on.

2. I think (I hope) the basis of our position ideas is a little different to
the others.
Indeed, the distance of the frequencies has to be the same. But the absolute
frequency positions of Hermode Tuning are different.
We say: The default position of every chord structure has to be so, that
the result of all deviations to the level of equal temperament will be 0 or
near by 0.
Examples:
C-major C = 4, G = 6, E = -10, deviation in Cents to ET, (Sum = 0).
A.minor A = -6, E = -4 C = +10 deviation in Cents to ET, (Sum = 0).
As a result of this position means changing the harmonies from a major chord
to its
minor parallel or inverse causes only little steps in default.
Additionally we equalize by additional means. We lift or shift down the line
of ET mastertune so that the retuning steps almost will be under 4 Cents.

This is the basic idea, indeed, we have different "modes" with different
character. Performing an "absolute just intonation" or on the other hand
prefering
a smooth horizontal line. Adding the natural sept (or not). Inequal
temperament
for baroque music or equal just intonation for classic or romantic music.
Adaptive temperament which change the character depending whether you
play music with a tonal idenity or romantic music with dashing harmonies.
Additional means to control to "higher" or "lower" degree of correction.

Kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Bill Sethares [mailto:sethares@ece.wisc.edu]
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2003 17:19
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
> Hi to all,
>
> I am a new member of this tuning group and I want to introduce myself
and
> the subject of "Hermode Tuning".

Hi Werner and welcome. Some of us had run across your website earlier -
very nice
job, with slick presentation. And I'm especially happy to see that you are
finding
commmercial success (in the Waldorf and other synths).

I hope that you'll be able to fill us in a but more about your system
functions. You'll
find a very appreciative audience here for anything to do with just
intonation (I believe
this is the same as what your web site calls "harmonic tuning") and other
forms of
alternative tunings. What your website seems to be lacking (maybe I missed
it?) is an
explanation of how the chords are analyzed so as to come up with the
appropriate
retuning.

In fact, we have had active discussions over the years about ways to
accomplish
similar things. For example, John deL's system uses a spring-mass paradigm
where all
the notes are connected together with "JI springs." An algorithm then
adjusts the
tuning of all the notes so as minimize the tension on the springs. My own
"adaptive tuning" system operates by minimizing a measure of the "sensory
dissonance" (roughness) of all the simultaneously sounding notes.
Interestingly, both
of these systems behave the same as in the example on your website of the
retuning
of the C major chord from its default 12-tet into a just chord. I'm sure
that in detail
the systems must be different, while in simple cases they are the same.

In any case, I would very much like to understand the basis of the hermode
tunings
operation...

--Bill Sethares

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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Bill,

in my last answer there was an error.

Correctly:

All actual "Note On" are projected on one the twelve positions of one octave
from C to B.
Than -
1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0 is a C major chord,
0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0 is an D(!) minor chord
1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0 is an A(!) minor chord
0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1 is a G major sept chord
and so on.
-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Bill Sethares [mailto:sethares@ece.wisc.edu]
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2003 17:19
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
> Hi to all,
>
> I am a new member of this tuning group and I want to introduce myself
and
> the subject of "Hermode Tuning".

Hi Werner and welcome ..
(Snip)
the basis of the hermode tunings
operation...

--Bill Sethares

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Bill Sethares <sethares@ece.wisc.edu>

Werner, thanks for the reply. Now that I have an idea of how hermode
works, its clear that there are several things
different between the various methods of automated retuning.

> 1. Analysing chords is very simple and I didn't know that this could
> be a question. All actual "Note On" are projected on one the twelve
> positions of one octave from C to B.

Right away, one difference is in the octave reduction.
Neither the spring tuning nor the dissonance-based adaptive
tuning moves notes all to the same octave. I can see that
this would make calculations easier.

> 2. I think (I hope) the basis of our position ideas is a little
> different to the others. Indeed, the distance of the
> frequencies has to be the same. But the absolute frequency
> positions of Hermode Tuning are different.

I guess one would have to work out some examples to be sure,
but it appears that all the methods somehow "average out"
the deviations. I take it from the example that
you essentially average in cents. If you think of the physical
analogy with the springs, they pull all the ratios up or down
so that again the "average" deviation is (close to) zero.
An analogous thing happens in the adaptive tuning.
So Im not sure this is a large difference between the methods.

Given your examples, it looks like the major difference is in
the method of calculation.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood,
but it looks like the analysis step in the hermode
tuning is a kind of "look-up table" of chords.
Once the (octave reduced) chord is found in the
table, then the "center of tuning" for the chord
can be found, and then the pitches changed acccordingly.

If this is correct, then I think the closest implementation to
hermode is neither the spring tuning nor the adaptive tuning,
but rather the approach used by Ben Denckla in his MS thesis.
The reference is:

B. Denckla, ``Dynamic Intonation for Synthesizer Performance,"
Masters Thesis, MIT, Sept. (1997).

Anyway, I look forward to trying out the hermode tuning.
Do you know if NI is planning on implementing it in
their software sampler Kontakt?

-- Bill Sethares

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Hi Bill,

... Anyway, I look forward to trying out the hermode tuning.
Do you know if NI is planning on implementing it in
their software sampler Kontakt?

Yes, as we have a contract with them. It is confirmed to us that they will
start
with the "Kontakt". And they possess all documentations of our program.
(And we possess already the license fees).
I hope, it will be done within the next three months. But you know: All
things
require more time than originally planned.

Kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Bill Sethares [mailto:sethares@ece.wisc.edu]
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2003 23:06
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: AW: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

Werner, thanks for the reply. Now that I have an idea of how hermode
works, its clear that there are several things
different between the various methods of automated retuning.

> 1. Analysing chords is very simple and I didn't know that this could
> be a question. All actual "Note On" are projected on one the twelve
> positions of one octave from C to B.

Given your examples, it looks like the major difference is in
the method of calculation.

B. Denckla, ``Dynamic Intonation for Synthesizer Performance,"
Masters Thesis, MIT, Sept. (1997).

Anyway, I look forward to trying out the hermode tuning.
Do you know if NI is planning on implementing it in
their software sampler Kontakt?

-- Bill Sethares

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ADVERTISEMENT

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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

To Paul, to Carl and to all

indeed, the basic idea of Hermode Tuning is the centering of the retuning
values. And it is correct understood: The first step is to compare
the actual Note On situation with stored chord or interval
structures in a table, the second step is to class the predetermined tuning
values of a second table to the recognized chord structure.

But these two steps are not sufficient for a flexible and smart real time
tuning programme.

There are three problems which have to be weighted:

1. It is definitely impossible to link all frequencies of all identic notes
in different harmony sequences. With other words: One oftenly has
to retune two or more notes inverse. If this has to be done legato,
there will come up audible retuning steps as soon as you tune all these
structures to absolute just intonation. (Just intonation understood as
pure thirds and pure fifths, the natural sept, if desired, is a separate
problem).

2. A real time program as Hermode Tuning is, cannot foreknow what the
next Note On or Note Off message will bring as new note. You, as a
keyboarder
for instance intend to play a C major chord. But for the program it will be
a
sequence of Notes like C - E - G or G - E - C or E - G - C. The
program cannot wait and has to retune in real time. Some of the problems
are softened by the centering idea, but not all of them.

3. For practical aims the tuning values should stay as near as possible
to ET. Hermode Tuning is created for making music in common with other
instruments. Also instruments with fixed equal or near-to-equal temperament.

To 1.:
A typical example is the progression from D-F-A-C to G-H(german B)-D-F.
At the first chord you will have the Cent values -9, +7, -7, +9, in the
second
one the Cent values +4, -10, +6, 0. All Cent values as deviations from ET.
In the second chord the F should be tuned as a double-sub-fifth to the G.
Therefore, the Cent values from D change in default from -9 to + 6, these of
F from
+7 to 0. The sum is 22 Cents, the so called (in German:) "Syntonisches
Komma".
I don't know the english name, is it "Syntonic Komma"????
Now one has to decide: Hold the predetermined absolute values - than you
have to divide the Syntonic Komma and to retune both, D and F by 11 Cents.
this would be audible!!! -
or to retune both by compromise means by inaudible steps of about 4 Cents.
The result of the compromise will be that the second chord will not be
tuned
to just intonation.
Another example: Gliding from C-E-G# to C-E-G. C-E-G# is an augmented
triad and cannot be tuned to just intonation. Hermode Tuning tunes such
structures
and other, known or unknown structures so that the horizontal line of
frequencies
will be as its best. But as a result of this the positions of C-E in C-E-G#
could be, for instance C = 0, E = +7. In C-E-G it should be C = +4, E = -10.
The retuning step of both, C and E would be in sum 21 Cents. The same
problem
as above. Reducing the retuning steps will bring audible beats by the
incorrect
tuned C major chord. Not reducing the steps will bring audible retuning
effects.

To 2. :
Every new played harmonic structure could begin with a message of a new
third structure to the program. You intend to play C-E-G and touch first the
keys C - E.
C as first note will be indifferent, Cent value 0.
C - E is a major third, Cent values C +7 / E -7. The Step 0 to +7 Cents of
the C could be audible. Now, as it is no "inverse" retuning problem, the
program
slightly will shift down the basic ET mastertune level by 4 Cents, so that
the result will be C= +7-4 = 3 Cents, E = -7-3 = -10 Cents.
If there follows C-E-G with +4/ -10/ +6 Cents in default, there will be no
problem
and the shifted mastertune level will jump back to its default position.

To 3.:
The example of above (2.) shows, that it oftenly will be necessary to shift
the mastertune level. Little shifts of 3 Cents as shown in the last example
are no problem, but with other sequences of notes or chords the shifting
values are higher. Therefore we try to avoid shifting when ever possible.
We profit by the fact that the human ear requires some milliseconds until
it will have realized the height of a tone. Or with other words: If the
frequency
of this tone changes within this time, this will be inaudible.
This time difference is about 30 ms. Effectively the value is higher by
deep tones, shorter by high tones, but 30 ms is a good compromise.
(To avoid misunderstandings: You can realize the precise frequency even of a
tone
which is shorter than 30 ms, but only than, when he will not change
its frequency and/ or within this time or will not be affected by a second
one).
This means: In the example, shown above (2.), we equalize only if the
first C will exist alone by more than 30 ms.
You may think that this problem is a little one, but in sum of all
mastertune shifting means the mastertune level could quickly
drift away and more than we want to permit.
This means: Our program contents timer(s) which control how long every note
exists and according to the different answers it decides if and how it
equalizes
- or not.

Now I told you the Hermode Tuning technology of 1988!!!

Weighting all the points described above you may become aware that
for fine ears there may be something unsatisfying. Perfect just intonation
is
combined with audible retuning steps. Equalizing with the means
described above causes hard changes between beatfree chords and others
with audible beats. In this way Hermode Tuning is a good program and the
user like it. And for orchestra sounds it is nearly perfect.
But for clear sounds like church organ (We use church organ sounds for our
tests) we haven't been completely pleased.
You can imagine that we looked therefore for new ways for a rich
temperament,
near to just intonation but with less contrasts.

But this is a new chapter and would extend this letter in a way too much.
Besides, with the help of diagrams it coud be understood much better.
Therefore my question: Is it allowed to add diagrams, for instance as PDF,
to
these messages?
Who can answer this?

Kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. November 2003 05:59
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Sethares" <sethares@e...> wrote:
> Werner, thanks for the reply. Now that I have an idea of how
hermode works,
(Snip)
> Please correct me if I've misunderstood,
> but it looks like the analysis step in the hermode
> tuning is a kind of "look-up table" of chords.
> Once the (octave reduced) chord is found in the
> table, then the "center of tuning" for the chord
> can be found, and then the pitches changed acccordingly.
>
> If this is correct, then I think the closest implementation to
> hermode is neither the spring tuning nor the adaptive tuning,
> but rather the approach used by Ben Denckla in his MS thesis.

The above is also identical with John deLaubenfels early real-time
retuning program, _JI Relay_. In the archives of this list, you can
find extensive discussions between John and me evolving from this
idea to the more advanced spring ideas used in his leisure-time (is
that the correct term for non-real-time) software.

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🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Re: AW: [tuning] Re: Hermode TuningHi, Alison,

...A chargeable upgrade?

I don't know. I assume: Less or no.
But Native has to decide this.

Kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Alison Monteith [mailto:alison.monteith3@which.net]
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. November 2003 12:38
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: AW: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

on 28/11/03 23:01, Werner Mohrlok at wmohrlok@hermode.com wrote:

Hi Bill,

... Anyway, I look forward to trying out the hermode tuning.
Do you know if NI is planning on implementing it in
their software sampler Kontakt?

Yes, as we have a contract with them. It is confirmed to us that they
will start
with the "Kontakt". And they possess all documentations of our program.
(And we possess already the license fees).
I hope, it will be done within the next three months. But you know: All
things
require more time than originally planned.

Kind regards

Werner

This is excellent news but presumably that means a chargeable upgrade?

Sincerely
a.m.

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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

> To 1.:
> A typical example is the progression from D-F-A-C to G-H(german B)-
D-F.
> At the first chord you will have the Cent values -9, +7, -7, +9, in
the
> second
> one the Cent values +4, -10, +6, 0.
> All Cent values as deviations from ET.
> In the second chord the F should be tuned as a double-sub-fifth to
the G.

Why? I don't see any acoustical justification for this. By ear, one
could either continue to tune D-F as a 5:6 ratio, or tune the whole
G7 chord as 4:5:6:7. But better than either option is John
deLaubenfels' spring method, which *only* applies pressure on the
consonant intervals, leaving the dissonant ones to fall as they may.
I now propose a real-time modification of the spring method, such
that notes are sprung to those occuring simultaneously and
previously, but not (of course) in the future, as they are in the
leisure-time program. John, are you listening? If not, I'll contact
you offlist.

> Therefore, the Cent values from D change in default from -9 to + 6,
these of
> F from
> +7 to 0. The sum is 22 Cents, the so called (in
German:) "Syntonisches
> Komma".
> I don't know the english name, is it "Syntonic Komma"????

Syntonic comma.

> Now one has to decide: Hold the predetermined absolute values -
than you
> have to divide the Syntonic Komma and to retune both, D and F by 11
Cents.
> this would be audible!!! -
> or to retune both by compromise means by inaudible steps of about 4
Cents.
> The result of the compromise will be that the second chord will
not be
> tuned
> to just intonation.

Good -- it probably shouldn't anyway!

> But this is a new chapter and would extend this letter in a way too
much.
> Besides, with the help of diagrams it coud be understood much
better.
> Therefore my question: Is it allowed to add diagrams, for instance
as PDF,
> to
> these messages?
> Who can answer this?

You are strongly encouraged to upload any and all PDFs to the files
folder of the tuning_files group, since we are just about out of
space on this group. Let me know if you need help doing that.

Thanks so much for sharing,
Paul

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Paul,

Indeed, positioning in this example (the G7 chord) the F as a
double-sub-fifth to the G doesn't
bring a more consonant sound than the 6 : 5 position. And you are right, one
can position
this note to many places near to ET, the acoustic result in every case will
not be a
consonant one . In contrast to the natural sept 6 : 7. But this position (we
have alternate program
modes, adding the natural sept) causes in every case hard retuning steps.

But holding the F and the D would bring the chord G-B-D-F to an extreme deep
position
and the result would be that a cadence C major, F major, D minor7, G7 and
back to C major
would position the last C major chord by about the syntonic comma deeper
than
the first C major chord. (I know such programs and it is nice to play such
cadences 4 times,
so that C major after the 3d repetiton will have changed to B major. But for
making music
this is no practicable way.)

Besides: "Falling down where they may" - We cannot write programs with the
message:
"The note may fall where it may". - I feel, you want to say: "The note may
fall to its
most practicable position". But it cannot become foreseen in every moment
where this
most practicable postion will be. Don't forget: Hermode Tuning doesn't
foresee which Note
On or Note Off message next will come in. Hermode Tuning is a real time
tuning
programme. And even with non-real time means such problems (and others)
cannot be
solved without conflicts.

Creating and adding PDFs is no problem. I only wanted to know whether the
convention of this group will allow to send them. I understand "yes" and I
will do so.

Kind regards - and thank you for your patience...

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. November 2003 19:43
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:

Syntonic comma.

Good -- it probably shouldn't anyway!

You are strongly encouraged to upload any and all PDFs to the files
folder of the tuning_files group, since we are just about out of
space on this group. Let me know if you need help doing that.

Thanks so much for sharing,
Paul

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Indeed, positioning in this example (the G7 chord) the F as a
> double-sub-fifth to the G doesn't
> bring a more consonant sound than the 6 : 5 position. And you are
right, one
> can position
> this note to many places near to ET, the acoustic result in every
case will
> not be a
> consonant one . In contrast to the natural sept 6 : 7. But this
position (we
> have alternate program
> modes, adding the natural sept) causes in every case hard retuning
steps.
>
> But holding the F and the D would bring the chord G-B-D-F to an
extreme deep
> position
> and the result would be that a cadence C major, F major, D minor7,
G7 and
> back to C major
> would position the last C major chord by about the syntonic comma
deeper
> than
> the first C major chord. (I know such programs and it is nice to
play such
> cadences 4 times,
> so that C major after the 3d repetiton will have changed to B
major. But for
> making music
> this is no practicable way.)

You're preaching to the converted, Werner. But you were the last
person I expected this to be relevant for. Since you are 'always'
making the signed deviations from a fixed 12-equal base SUM TO ZERO.
So what's the point of bringing up a case like the above, if it's
understood that C major will always be perfectly centered around the
fixed 12-equal C major? I must be missing something . . .

>
> Besides: "Falling down where they may" - We cannot write programs
with the
> message:
> "The note may fall where it may". - I feel, you want to say: "The
note may
> fall to its
> most practicable position". But it cannot become foreseen in every
moment
> where this
> most practicable postion will be. Don't forget: Hermode Tuning
doesn't
> foresee which Note
> On or Note Off message next will come in. Hermode Tuning is a real
time
> tuning
> programme. And even with non-real time means such problems (and
others)
> cannot be
> solved without conflicts.

My highest kudos to you for working so hard and for so long on
minimizing the possibilities of such conflicts. In the non-real-time
field, the successes achieved by John deLaubenfels have truly been
stunning. If you haven't looked into his work yet, it might be worth
your while.

> Creating and adding PDFs is no problem. I only wanted to know
whether the
> convention of this group will allow to send them. I
understand "yes" and I
> will do so.

Don't send them as you would send a message -- instead, upload them
to the files folder of the tuning-files list.

Warmest regards,
Paul

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

Carl,

...Or, you can of course post the file to the web somewhere, and simply
provide a link in your e-mail.

O.K., this seems to be the best way. I will do so.

Kind regards

Werner

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Carl Lumma [mailto:ekin@lumma.org]
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. November 2003 21:37
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: AW: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

Hi Werner,

>Creating and adding PDFs is no problem. I only wanted to know whether
>the convention of this group will allow to send them. I understand
>"yes" and I will do so.

I don't know what happens to e-mail attachments these days -- yahoo
has changed their policy recently. But e-mail attachments were never
considered a good way to send a file to the group.

Paul is referring to this group...

/tuning_files/

...which we set up for the sole purpose of hosting files. Please
follow the "files" link in the left-hand column of this group,
"Create a folder" with your name, and then add your file to this
folder.

Or, you can of course post the file to the web somewhere, and simply
provide a link in your e-mail.

-Carl

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. November 2003 04:58
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

"Always to zero"??? Yes, in relationship to a virtual equal temperament
line. But this line
is climbing up and down according to the necessary equalizing means.
Indeed, in this example
and with the third D - F = 5 : 6 our system wouldn' shift down by 22
Cents but only by about
8 - 10 Cents. But this would be also too much.

Paul, you understood one of the basics of our system (Sum to zero) , but
not all additional
and necessary means for a practicable real time tuning system. This is no
reproach, not at all.
Frankly, I don't know how it is possible for you to handle this forum and
to handle yor
main tasks in common. This is admirable. Nevertheless I propose: If you
any will have free
5 minutes, then go to our webpage, look to the "historical" chapter and
there on the end to
the subject "Software driven tunings". There you will find diagrams of 4
different ideas how to
handle this subject. Shown with a simple musical example.
The first three are made of other persons or companies before us, the
forth is Hermode Tuning.

The site is www.hermode.com
Besides, I will create as soon as possible more detailed informations with
diagrams
and publish them for the members.
>
> Besides: "Falling down where they may" - We cannot write programs
with the
> message:
> "The note may fall where it may". - I feel, you want to say: "The
note may
> fall to its
> most practicable position". But it cannot become foreseen in every
moment
> where this
> most practicable postion will be. Don't forget: Hermode Tuning
doesn't
> foresee which Note
> On or Note Off message next will come in. Hermode Tuning is a real
time
> tuning
> programme. And even with non-real time means such problems (and
others)
> cannot be
> solved without conflicts.

I have already tried to do so and found a lot of informations, but no
precise one
regarding this subject. If possible, please say me the correct link.

> Creating and adding PDFs is no problem. I only wanted to know
whether the
> convention of this group will allow to send them. I
understand "yes" and I
> will do so.

Don't send them as you would send a message -- instead, upload them
to the files folder of the tuning-files list.

I will do so and set additionally a link for you on my sites.

Warmest regards,
Paul

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. November 2003 04:58
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

Paul -

I meanwhile got the relevant informations in JLs system by Bill Sethares.
After a first look
to it I am convinced that It is basing in the same ideas.
Now I understand better the word "spring". ( I always had the idea of
"clear water")
and therefore feeled puzzeled...
I am embarassed now... I should have understood this, as I oftenly in
discussions
and letters characterized "Hermode Tuning" as an "elastic" system.

As to my opinion there is no fundamental difference betwen the JLs system
and ours.
It seems that we handle some details differently. But I don't believe,
that one could
characterize JLs system as a "non real time" system and ours as a "real
time" system.
Both are suitable for both aims. Indeed, I believe (I don't know) that our
system shows some
additional pragmatic means which make it more flexible for real time aims.
Yet we had
more than ten years time to refine it. Nevertheless already our first
programs did show
all ideas of JLs spring system and perhaps (perhaps!!) some more. But this
could be
discussed as soon as we will have set our complete information into the
folder.

Now we have at least three inventors of this system:

Me (with the help of my son Herwig) in 1987, published in 1988.

A japanes trumpet player (not only the bassoonist are inventive!!!):
Nobuo Tsuji, living in Germany, near Giessen, invented in 1994 or 1995.

John deLaubenfels in 2000 or earlier.

(The Waage system cannot be added, at it is very inflexible and combined
with
hard retuning steps).

Don't send them as you would send a message -- instead, upload them
to the files folder of the tuning-files list.

I will do so...

Warmest regards,
Paul

Kind regards
Werner

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

Hi Werner, I will look at your site again over the next few days.

In the meantime, I can suggest a few readings for you that should
help you see where I'm coming from and the irony of your bringing up
the drift issue to me. Here are some ideas I've been active in
advocating and developing during my years on this list:

http://www.sonic-arts.org/monzo/vicentino/vicentino.htm
http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptivetuning.htm
http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptiveji.htm

The Dave Keenan example on the latter page was instigated by me, and
is how I would tune the progression in question. Although the 1/4-
comma (~5.4 cents) retuning shifts may be audible, especially if
effected suddently and without glide at slower tempi, I've never
found them disturbing.

John deLaubenfels' site is

http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/j/d/jdelaub/jstudio.htm

If you manage to make it through all of those, I encourage you to use
the search facility on this list to read John deLaubenfels' posts and
those of people conversing with him (including myself under various
pseudonyms) . . .

Thanks for your patience and consideration,
Paul

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@s...]
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. November 2003 04:58
> An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...>
wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > Indeed, positioning in this example (the G7 chord) the F as a
> > double-sub-fifth to the G doesn't
> > bring a more consonant sound than the 6 : 5 position. And you
are
> right, one
> > can position
> > this note to many places near to ET, the acoustic result in
every
> case will
> > not be a
> > consonant one . In contrast to the natural sept 6 : 7. But this
> position (we
> > have alternate program
> > modes, adding the natural sept) causes in every case hard
retuning
> steps.
> >
> > But holding the F and the D would bring the chord G-B-D-F to an
> extreme deep
> > position
> > and the result would be that a cadence C major, F major, D
minor7,
> G7 and
> > back to C major
> > would position the last C major chord by about the syntonic
comma
> deeper
> > than
> > the first C major chord. (I know such programs and it is nice to
> play such
> > cadences 4 times,
> > so that C major after the 3d repetiton will have changed to B
> major. But for
> > making music
> > this is no practicable way.)
>
> You're preaching to the converted, Werner. But you were the last
> person I expected this to be relevant for. Since you are 'always'
> making the signed deviations from a fixed 12-equal base SUM TO
ZERO.
> So what's the point of bringing up a case like the above, if it's
> understood that C major will always be perfectly centered around
the
> fixed 12-equal C major? I must be missing something . . .
>
> "Always to zero"??? Yes, in relationship to a virtual equal
temperament
> line. But this line
> is climbing up and down according to the necessary equalizing
means.
> Indeed, in this example
> and with the third D - F = 5 : 6 our system wouldn' shift down
by 22
> Cents but only by about
> 8 - 10 Cents. But this would be also too much.
>
> Paul, you understood one of the basics of our system (Sum to
zero) , but
> not all additional
> and necessary means for a practicable real time tuning system.
This is no
> reproach, not at all.
> Frankly, I don't know how it is possible for you to handle this
forum and
> to handle yor
> main tasks in common. This is admirable. Nevertheless I propose:
If you
> any will have free
> 5 minutes, then go to our webpage, look to the "historical"
chapter and
> there on the end to
> the subject "Software driven tunings". There you will find
diagrams of 4
> different ideas how to
> handle this subject. Shown with a simple musical example.
> The first three are made of other persons or companies before us,
the
> forth is Hermode Tuning.
>
> The site is www.hermode.com
> Besides, I will create as soon as possible more detailed
informations with
> diagrams
> and publish them for the members.
> >
> > Besides: "Falling down where they may" - We cannot write
programs
> with the
> > message:
> > "The note may fall where it may". - I feel, you want to
say: "The
> note may
> > fall to its
> > most practicable position". But it cannot become foreseen in
every
> moment
> > where this
> > most practicable postion will be. Don't forget: Hermode Tuning
> doesn't
> > foresee which Note
> > On or Note Off message next will come in. Hermode Tuning is a
real
> time
> > tuning
> > programme. And even with non-real time means such problems (and
> others)
> > cannot be
> > solved without conflicts.
>
> My highest kudos to you for working so hard and for so long on
> minimizing the possibilities of such conflicts. In the non-real-
time
> field, the successes achieved by John deLaubenfels have truly been
> stunning. If you haven't looked into his work yet, it might be
worth
> your while.
>
> I have already tried to do so and found a lot of informations,
but no
> precise one
> regarding this subject. If possible, please say me the correct
link.
>
> > Creating and adding PDFs is no problem. I only wanted to know
> whether the
> > convention of this group will allow to send them. I
> understand "yes" and I
> > will do so.
>
> Don't send them as you would send a message -- instead, upload
them
> to the files folder of the tuning-files list.
>
> I will do so and set additionally a link for you on my sites.
>
> Warmest regards,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the
tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
on hold
> for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
daily digest
> mode.
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individual
> emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 1. Dezember 2003 22:09
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

Hi Werner, I will look at your site again over the next few days.

http://www.sonic-arts.org/monzo/vicentino/vicentino.htm
http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptivetuning.htm
http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptiveji.htm

Oh yes and I aware that the "centering" (or "spring") idea is presented in
many examples.
(Indeed, when we developed this idea in 1987 I asked myself: "This is a
very simple but
effective idea, why has this not been proposed until now?"

On the other hand (I remember exactly): The idea came to me in an evening
when I reflected
the problems of just intonation. I had a very sleepless night as until
this date I followed the idea of
a root-fixed system. I asked myself: "Could this be allowed? - But as it
seemed to me the only
practicable way, I changed my mind quickly.

John deLaubenfels' site is

http://personalpages.bellsouth.net/j/d/jdelaub/jstudio.htm

I studied some letters of John, but frankly, when reading them I forgot
the mechanical springs and
got a feeling of flowers, fountains, birds... the winter has gone, the
spring comes back!!!
Maybe I studied the wrong letters...

Nevertheless he seems to be a nice guy. I admire him.

Thanks for your patience and consideration,
Paul

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
>
> -----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@s...]
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. November 2003 04:58
> An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...>
wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > Indeed, positioning in this example (the G7 chord) the F as a
> > double-sub-fifth to the G doesn't
> > bring a more consonant sound than the 6 : 5 position. And you
are
> right, one
> > can position
> > this note to many places near to ET, the acoustic result in
every
> case will
> > not be a
> > consonant one . In contrast to the natural sept 6 : 7. But this
> position (we
> > have alternate program
> > modes, adding the natural sept) causes in every case hard
retuning
> steps.
> >
> > But holding the F and the D would bring the chord G-B-D-F to an
> extreme deep
> > position
> > and the result would be that a cadence C major, F major, D
minor7,
> G7 and
> > back to C major
> > would position the last C major chord by about the syntonic
comma
> deeper
> > than
> > the first C major chord. (I know such programs and it is nice to
> play such
> > cadences 4 times,
> > so that C major after the 3d repetiton will have changed to B
> major. But for
> > making music
> > this is no practicable way.)
>
> You're preaching to the converted, Werner. But you were the last
> person I expected this to be relevant for. Since you are 'always'
> making the signed deviations from a fixed 12-equal base SUM TO
ZERO.
> So what's the point of bringing up a case like the above, if it's
> understood that C major will always be perfectly centered around
the
> fixed 12-equal C major? I must be missing something . . .
>
> "Always to zero"??? Yes, in relationship to a virtual equal
temperament
> line. But this line
> is climbing up and down according to the necessary equalizing
means.
> Indeed, in this example
> and with the third D - F = 5 : 6 our system wouldn' shift down
by 22
> Cents but only by about
> 8 - 10 Cents. But this would be also too much.
>
> Paul, you understood one of the basics of our system (Sum to
zero) , but
> not all additional
> and necessary means for a practicable real time tuning system.
This is no
> reproach, not at all.
> Frankly, I don't know how it is possible for you to handle this
forum and
> to handle yor
> main tasks in common. This is admirable. Nevertheless I propose:
If you
> any will have free
> 5 minutes, then go to our webpage, look to the "historical"
chapter and
> there on the end to
> the subject "Software driven tunings". There you will find
diagrams of 4
> different ideas how to
> handle this subject. Shown with a simple musical example.
> The first three are made of other persons or companies before us,
the
> forth is Hermode Tuning.
>
> The site is www.hermode.com
> Besides, I will create as soon as possible more detailed
informations with
> diagrams
> and publish them for the members.
> >
> > Besides: "Falling down where they may" - We cannot write
programs
> with the
> > message:
> > "The note may fall where it may". - I feel, you want to
say: "The
> note may
> > fall to its
> > most practicable position". But it cannot become foreseen in
every
> moment
> > where this
> > most practicable postion will be. Don't forget: Hermode Tuning
> doesn't
> > foresee which Note
> > On or Note Off message next will come in. Hermode Tuning is a
real
> time
> > tuning
> > programme. And even with non-real time means such problems (and
> others)
> > cannot be
> > solved without conflicts.
>
> My highest kudos to you for working so hard and for so long on
> minimizing the possibilities of such conflicts. In the non-real-
time
> field, the successes achieved by John deLaubenfels have truly been
> stunning. If you haven't looked into his work yet, it might be
worth
> your while.
>
> I have already tried to do so and found a lot of informations,
but no
> precise one
> regarding this subject. If possible, please say me the correct
link.
>
> > Creating and adding PDFs is no problem. I only wanted to know
> whether the
> > convention of this group will allow to send them. I
> understand "yes" and I
> > will do so.
>
> Don't send them as you would send a message -- instead, upload
them
> to the files folder of the tuning-files list.
>
> I will do so and set additionally a link for you on my sites.
>
> Warmest regards,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the
tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
on hold
> for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
daily digest
> mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
individual
> emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@hermode.com>

-----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@stretch-music.com]
Gesendet: Montag, 1. Dezember 2003 23:21
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Werner Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@h...> wrote:
>
> -----Ursprï¿½ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Paul Erlich [mailto:paul@s...]
> Gesendet: Montag, 1. Dezember 2003 22:09
> An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning
>
>
> Hi Werner, I will look at your site again over the next few days.
>
> In the meantime, I can suggest a few readings for you that should
> help you see where I'm coming from and the irony of your bringing
up
> the drift issue to me. Here are some ideas I've been active in
> advocating and developing during my years on this list:
>
> http://www.sonic-arts.org/monzo/vicentino/vicentino.htm
> http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptivetuning.htm
> http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptiveji.htm
>
> Oh yes and I aware that the "centering" (or "spring") idea is
presented in
> many examples.

Hmm . . . neither idea is presented in any of the sites above, nor
are they in any way synonymous.

In the last mentioned site there is a musical example with Orlando di
Lasso's motet "Ave regina..."
and added by tuning steps of 1, 1/4 and 1/2 comma. Indeed, at the first
time the root (G) is set on the
default osition of ET and the B 1 comma deeper. But the second measure
shows with C + 1/4 comma,
G + 1/4 comma, E = - 3/4 comma at least an approach to this idea.
But when studying the complete diagram I aware tht this idea hasn't been
followed in every case.

> The Dave Keenan example on the latter page was instigated by me,
and
> is how I would tune the progression in question. Although the 1/4-
> comma (~5.4 cents) retuning shifts may be audible, especially if
> effected suddently and without glide at slower tempi, I've never
> found them disturbing.

This is very similar to the chord progression you mentioned, but as
you can see, there's no drift. Comments?

You are right.

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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@...>

Dear Members,

After a long time...

The first reason why I am writing is: I sometimes read comments to our
technology at these sites and it seems to me that not all commentators have
comprehended how Hermode Tuning works. Some comments are incorrect. So
please allow me to explain it in brief words.

The second reason is: We have posted on our website some musical files which
could be interesting for testing your ears. See the annotations below.

Firstly: Hermode Tuning is written for a self-regulating tuning at
electronic musical instruments and virtual instruments like sequencers
combined with samplers, synths and so on.
The presumption is that the referring music is multi voiced, written in
western tradition, basing in chords and note combinations with thirds and
fifths intervals. Hermode Tuning controls in real time, even at sequencers.
It isn't prospective, this would bring less or nothing. The main problems of
controlling the frequencies are caused by the incompatibility in principle
of fifths and thirds when bringing them to just intonation. Hermode Tuning
analyzes chords and note combinations and brings them to just intonation if
any possible. The programme starts at every new not-on or note-off message
and it combines three requirements: Optimal rapprochement to just
intonation/ inaudible retuning steps/ frequency positions as near as
possible to the line of equal temperament.
Imagine that the default straight horizontal line of E.T. will be moved to a
serpent, changing its figure ongoing, than you will get an idea how it
works. The tuning values of this serpent are partial higher and partial
deeper than the line of E.T. The average of all these deviations remains as
near as possible to the value "0".
Weighting inaudible retuning steps means that not in every moment the
frequency ratios will be absolutely in accordance with the values of just
intonation. At successive note combinations with four and more notes it can
happen that the retuning steps have do be corrected in opposite.
Besides, it is possible to reduce by default the depth of the correction
values. In this way Hermode Tuning is more or less a "living temperament".
Some commentators claimed that Hermode Tuning is 3/5 limited. This is not
correct. Correct is: One of our programme modes controls also to "natural
sevenths" as soon as major seventh chords occur. But you all know: This
natural seventh can cause audible retuning steps at harmonic sequences from
subdominant chords to dominant-seventh chords. Therefore one has to weight
carefully whether one should activate this mode.

Now to the musical files. You will find them at:
www.hermode.com/html/hermode-tuning-examples_en.html

Some of them are created wit a note editing programme "Capella", these files
are a little stiff. Nevertheless I recommend for the opening of ears: Listen
firstly to "Vom Himmel hoch" as the contrast between just intonation and
E.T. there is very distinct.
Additionally I recommend listen to Haydn's symphony no. 103, 1st movement.
There in the introduction the single voiced bass line is broken three times
by a chord sequence "dominant seventh" to "major tonica". The file "hermode"
is edited in 3/5 limit, therefore the chords sequence sound
"dissonant-consonat". The file "hermode 7th" is edited with the "natural
seventh", therefore this sequences sound "nearly consonant - consonant". The
file "tempered" is in E.T and sounds "dissonant-dissonant". In abstract I
prefer the 3/5 limit version, but indeed, with natural seventh it sounds
very impressive.
Last but not least listen to the two movements of Mozart's Piano Concerto KV
488. The example "hermode" controls both, orchestra and piano, to just
intonation. The file "hmtmix" controls the orchestra to just intonation, the
piano remains in E.T. This last version is somehow in accordance with the
real situation of human musicians on a well educated orchestra. Besides it
shows that Hermode Tuning at such combinations is compatible to E.T. - and
it sounds better than the all-E.T.-example.

Sorry, the orchestra samples are basing in a very little sample library,
therefore the orchestral sound and the dynamic progressions sound not
optimal. But actually I don't posses a better library.

Best

Werner Mohrlok

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@...>

Carl -

As natural seventh we understand in the concerning mode the tuning ratios
4:7 in the following note combinations:

4-5-6-7(!) e.g. G-B(H)-D-F

Or 4-5-7 e.g. G-B(H)-F

Or 4-5-6-7-9 e.g. G-B(H)-D-F-A

Or 4-6-7-9 e.g. G-B(H) -F-A

G-D-F against this is regarded as a part of a minor seventh chord with the
tuning ratios 10-15-18

Indeed, this is a little arbitrary but with an automatic detection it cannot
be handled I another wise.

Nice to hear again from you. May I ask whether you posses a sequencer - and
if yes: Which type?

Kind regards

Werner Mohrlok

_____

Von: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
Carl Lumma
Gesendet: Sonntag, 21. November 2010 23:34
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

Werner wrote:

> After a long time...

Yes, good to hear from you! It is also great to see new
music examples have been added to the Hermode site.

> Some commentators claimed that Hermode Tuning is 3/5 limited.
> This is not correct. Correct is: One of our programme modes
> controls also to "natural sevenths" as soon as major seventh
> chords occur.

Do you mean dominant seventh chord (0-4-7-10)?

By "natural seventh", do you mean 7:4 or 15:8?

> Last but not least listen to the two movements of Mozart's
> Piano Concerto KV 488. The example "hermode" controls both,
> orchestra and piano, to just intonation. The file "hmtmix"
> controls the orchestra to just intonation, the piano remains
> in E.T. This last version is somehow in accordance with the
> real situation of human musicians on a well educated orchestra.

Indeed.

I wish this site had an English version:

http://www.capella-software.de

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Werner Mohrlok <wmohrlok@...>

.. a microtonal keyboard controller? - May I ask whether your keyboard
supports tuning messages? And - if yes - which type of keyboard is it?

Best

Werner Mohrlok

_____

Von: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
Carl Lumma
Gesendet: Montag, 22. November 2010 03:56
An: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: [tuning] Re: Hermode Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com> , "Werner
Mohrlok" <wmohrlok@...> wrote:
>
> Carl -
>
> As natural seventh we understand in the concerning mode the
> tuning ratios 4:7 in the following note combinations:
>
> 4-5-6-7(!) e.g. G-B(H)-D-F
>
> Or 4-5-7 e.g. G-B(H)-F
>
> Or 4-5-6-7-9 e.g. G-B(H)-D-F-A
>
> Or 4-6-7-9 e.g. G-B(H) -F-A

Ah, OK. Then in English we call this a "dominant 7th chord"
or a "major-minor 7th chord".

A "major 7th chord" is G-B-D-F#, generally expressed in
just intonation as 8:10:12:15.

A "minor 7th chord" is G-Bb-D-F, generally expressed as
either 10:12:15:18 or 12:14:18:21 in just intonation.

> G-D-F against this is regarded as a part of a minor seventh
> chord with the tuning ratios 10-15-18

OK.

> Nice to hear again from you. May I ask whether you posses
> a sequencer - and if yes: Which type?

I have Logic Studio 1.1. But at the moment I am focused
on learning to use my new microtonal keyboard controller

http://www.c-thru-music.com/cgi/?page=prod_axis-49

-Carl