The Orchestral Beast (for Kyle and Johnny)

In general, to the list:

This started as a discussion, from Kyle, as to the realism of attempting to compose (and get performed) non-12 music for an orchestra. To an extent it has veered, of which I am sorry. I will wrap up my thoughts on this, partly in responding to Johnny, and then I won't have anything else to say. If this general topic has been a burden or offensive to you, now is the time to use the delete key.

To Kyle:

I'm glad that you've found something of value. For my part, I was trying to give the perspective of someone who is actually involved, in an ongoing basis, with performing in a major orchestra in the United States. If there are others on the list that do the same thing and have differing opinions, of course I welcome them. And to the others who may be reading, I hope that you'll simply give weight to my thoughts in the light that they come: from someone who deals with a professional orchestral scenario virtually every week.

And now, to answer some of Johnny's points:

> I often think you do not read an entire message before you decide to begin
> your responses.

Sheesh: this is not true. I have learned many things since going online, and one of the earliest was to read msgs thoroughly and more than once, as well as re-read my responses before hitting the "send" button.

> Additionally, I do not think either of us wants a flame war.

This is absolutely true, and I've couched my opinions in as soft a manner as possible. As always, I reserve the right to respectfully disagree.

I wrote:

>> In the 20 years or so of the AFMM, how many full orchestra programs
>> have you done?

> There have been 3 full orchestra performances. It is not only because of finance,
> but because of a paucity of repertoire that there have not been more. All the
> orchestra works were world premieres.

I certainly understand that one can't put on concerts without repertoire! But three orchestral performances, spread over 20 years, does not come even close to emulating what a regularly-concertizing ensemble can do. Remember, Kyle was lamenting composing for orchestras, and if one writes that kind of music one has in mind an 'exemplar' of performance; with orchestras, one would certainly have in mind the wonderful ensembles that have come to be over many, many years.

> Yes, so? I believe the orchestral musicians were considered "show horses in
> the concert ring" by your mentor, Harry Partch?

Harry Partch has nothing to do with this topic. Your repeatedly bringing him into it is either as an irritant or to try to speak to me in a language I understand; I assure you, neither case is necessary.

> I am quite comfortable with this ilk of musician, having worked with them
> my entire life.

I am sorry that the musicians that you work with are "ilk". While humanity is large in personality types, and there are some of my colleagues I don't, um, *value* very much, it just may be that the better orchestra musicians, the non-"ilk" variety, haven't chosen to work in your groups.

> No, it is not. [off-topic]

I have tried mightily to keep the topic on "orchestras playing non12". Not other ensembles.

> I don't want to issue single CDs.

Your choice, but it makes it impossible to know your repertoire, to hear the music you have championed. It makes it that anyone who doesn't travel to NY (or the rare occasions elsewhere) to rely on opinions of others. While you (rightfully so) mention all the glowing reviews, certainly you'd have to be aware that there are alternate reviews and opinions. For both positive and negative, I can only give them a small amount of credence, as I tend to trust my own ears. Therefore...

> Have you heard my album Raven available from Amazon.com? Did you get a copy
> of "Between the Keys"...

I own your entire catalog (including the "US Highball" tape you sent). If there is more than those two recordings from the 20 years, I'm unaware.

> before Sony mislead myself and Betty Freeman only to use it as a tax write-off?

We don't need to know all these personal details.

> My experience tells me that putting out 20 CDs at the same time will have a
> better chance to get the world's attention, than by drips and drabs. Allow me
> the courtesy to dispense my archive in an appropriate manner, and at the risk
> of your gripes about "mythology."

Well, sure, it is your choice. Time will tell if it was wise or not, but there have been so many, many opportunities to share music over (conservatively) the last 10 years (with advances in technology, ease of dissemination, etc.) that it becomes curious why people passionately involved in music would keep things back.

> And how long do they last? A few years.

There are some that have been together for a longer time than that, and also perform on a more regular basis to boot.

> We are now in our 24th year.

But that is easy to say when it isn't a regular ensemble, and gives concerts - on average - about once a year. Remember - the thread is about orchestras, and more specifically the ones that play together consistently.

> Once again, you are selling me short. [recording the Ives]

I am not selling *you* short, I am selling multi-tracked orchestral recordings short. And I'll wager I have far, far more time spent on orchestral recording sessions - both live large venue and 'stacked' studio sessions - than you'll ever have. I don't mean that in a 'male cat pissing contest' way, just that I have been doing those very kind of recording sessions since the mid-70's.

> It is difficult for you to imagine what is going on here because it has not
> been spelled out.

[and you spell it out later...]

> Jon, you don't understand the constrictions of doing concerts in NY,
> especially for large ensembles.

I know that it gets done.

> You don't know the specific contract that I have with music union #802.

I do know that the AFM (note one "M") has many kinds of recordings scales, and specifically there are a number of "limited pressing" agreements that bring things much more in line with smaller budgets. You have also never stated that the AFMM (your group) was an all-union ensemble.

> The Ives used my conducting core players... [snip]

Thanks for the description, it *was* interesting (and I *didn't* know the details). As always, I wish you the best of luck on getting the release out, and just as I mentioned when you announced the 20 discs a number of months ago, I'm willing to prepay if it helps move things along on the Ives.

But I don't believe this is what the entire topic was about.

> Let's table this for now so I can get back to work, getting these materials
> out to the public.

Good enough for me.

In fact, this is as good a place as any for me to bid adieu. For the next few months I'm going to be involved in activities that require real focus, and I can't seem to keep my hands off the keyboard when I see topics of interest on the list. As such, I need to close off my time here and every other list except MMM, which I feel a responsibility to. I hope you, Kyle, and everyone else has a good 120+ days or so...

Cheers,
Jon