Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning John Bull's "Ut Re Mi Fa Sol La"

Fellow Tuners,

There is an interesting musicological mystery regarding the Elizabethan
composer John Bull. The question-what tuning system did he have in mind for
his "harpsichord" composition "Ut Re Mi Fa Sol La" (from the "Fitzwilliam
Virginal Book"), which modulates enharmonically to distant, non
meantone-friendly (at least with 12 notes per ocatve) keys like e-flat minor
via a pivoting hexachordal scale passage in whole notes which forms a cantus
firmus around which the marvellous structure is built.....the footnote to the
Dover edition of my score raises the doubtful proposition that Bull was
thinking in 12-tet (it's an older turn of the century edition from what I
recall...I'd have to dig it out of my scores, most of which are still in
boxes from my recent move)

I think he was thinking in extended meantone, and I've started to realize a
19-tet version of the piece in midi, which I've had to put aside for a while,
but I will post if anyone is interested. It certainly sounds great in thsi
tuning, and I doubt Bull was writing in 12-tet for his harpsichord. But the
other question is, did he come into contact with the 19-tet Italian
harpsichord? It seems doubtful, and we are left with a puzzling mystery.

Some might quickly defend the 12-tet solution, by pointing out that fretted
viols of the day (which were 12-tet) might be used to lay a keyboard
bearing.....

Any thoughts?

-AKJ

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Aaron,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
>
> Fellow Tuners,
>
> There is an interesting musicological mystery regarding
> the Elizabethan composer John Bull. The question-what
> tuning system did he have in mind for his "harpsichord"
> composition "Ut Re Mi Fa Sol La" (from the "Fitzwilliam
> Virginal Book"), which modulates enharmonically to distant,
> non meantone-friendly (at least with 12 notes per ocatve)
> keys like e-flat minor via a pivoting hexachordal scale
> passage in whole notes which forms a cantus firmus around
> which the marvellous structure is built.....the footnote
> to the Dover edition of my score raises the doubtful
> proposition that Bull was thinking in 12-tet (it's an older
> turn of the century edition from what I recall...I'd have
> to dig it out of my scores, most of which are still in
> boxes from my recent move) I think he was thinking in
> extended meantone, and I've started to realize a 19-tet
> version of the piece in midi, which I've had to put aside
> for a while, but I will post if anyone is interested.

yes! please do!

i'll upload it to the sonic-arts site if you want
it to live there.

> It certainly sounds great in thsi tuning, and I doubt
> Bull was writing in 12-tet for his harpsichord. But the
> other question is, did he come into contact with the
> 19-tet Italian harpsichord? It seems doubtful, and we
> are left with a puzzling mystery.
>
> Some might quickly defend the 12-tet solution, by
> pointing out that fretted viols of the day (which were
> 12-tet) might be used to lay a keyboard bearing.....
>
> Any thoughts?

i think you've done your homework well!

many writers on Renaissance harmony have mentioned
Bull's use of chromaticism, specifically his characteristic
use of "false relations", where for example the bass-tenor-alto
sing D-A-F# to F-Bb-D, the "false relation" occurring
between the bass and alto.

but i've never read any reference to this particular piece.

is there a place where the enharmonic modulation
supposedly leads back to the origin pitch? or does
it just keep going?

a score would be nice too!

-monz

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

Hey-

Just a quick note....I've uploaded the still incomplete John Bull midi file
(it's less than half the work-I'm not sure I'll have time to finish it before
year's end, to be honest, I want to get back to my own composing first, alas,
and that's hard enough right now ;) ) to my website:

http://www.aaronandlorna.com/audio/bull_ut_re.mid

monz, If you want to copy it to sonic arts as well, you have my blessing.

As for a score, there are none I could find with Google on the net...I'm
afraid the best way is to buy Dover's version of the Fitzswilliam virginal
book...I would, if I had time, prepare a .pdf file for group study, but, like
I said.....

Cheers,
Aaron.

On Friday 07 November 2003 01:49 am, monz wrote:
> hi Aaron,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > Fellow Tuners,
> >
> > There is an interesting musicological mystery regarding
> > the Elizabethan composer John Bull. The question-what
> > tuning system did he have in mind for his "harpsichord"
> > composition "Ut Re Mi Fa Sol La" (from the "Fitzwilliam
> > Virginal Book"), which modulates enharmonically to distant,
> > non meantone-friendly (at least with 12 notes per ocatve)
> > keys like e-flat minor via a pivoting hexachordal scale
> > passage in whole notes which forms a cantus firmus around
> > which the marvellous structure is built.....the footnote
> > to the Dover edition of my score raises the doubtful
> > proposition that Bull was thinking in 12-tet (it's an older
> > turn of the century edition from what I recall...I'd have
> > to dig it out of my scores, most of which are still in
> > boxes from my recent move) I think he was thinking in
> > extended meantone, and I've started to realize a 19-tet
> > version of the piece in midi, which I've had to put aside
> > for a while, but I will post if anyone is interested.
>
> yes! please do!
>
> i'll upload it to the sonic-arts site if you want
> it to live there.
>
> > It certainly sounds great in thsi tuning, and I doubt
> > Bull was writing in 12-tet for his harpsichord. But the
> > other question is, did he come into contact with the
> > 19-tet Italian harpsichord? It seems doubtful, and we
> > are left with a puzzling mystery.
> >
> > Some might quickly defend the 12-tet solution, by
> > pointing out that fretted viols of the day (which were
> > 12-tet) might be used to lay a keyboard bearing.....
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
> i think you've done your homework well!
>
> many writers on Renaissance harmony have mentioned
> Bull's use of chromaticism, specifically his characteristic
> use of "false relations", where for example the bass-tenor-alto
> sing D-A-F# to F-Bb-D, the "false relation" occurring
> between the bass and alto.
>
> but i've never read any reference to this particular piece.
>
> is there a place where the enharmonic modulation
> supposedly leads back to the origin pitch? or does
> it just keep going?
>
> a score would be nice too!
>
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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> receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Friday 07 November 2003 03:25 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > I think he was thinking in extended meantone,
>
> margo seems to suggest as much here:
>
> /tuning/topicId_26689.html#26911

Paul,

Thanks for the interesting reference by Margo Schulter....the question
remains-did Bull actually have contact with Neopolitan 19-tone cembali?
It seems doubtful that these instruments were about very much in Elizabethan
England, and I know of no historical record of them being there. I also don't
know of any proof that they weren't there, either.

I've said elsewhere to Monz, but I thought I'd reiterate that the incomplete
midi file is up at http://www.aaronandlorna.com/audio/bull_ut_re.mid

I left out program change signals in the midi file-I suggest a harpsichord
patch, of course. Make sure that the bend parameter is a whole step in either
direction, which is standard.

When I have more free time, I'd like to finish the realization...Do we have a
volunteer to do a .pdf score of the piece for the archives? (it's a lot of
work, and a thankless task---perhaps some kind of midi to score script would
be better)--but the work is a masterpiece of Elizabethan virginal music, well
worth having around for reference on the 'net.....

Best,
AKJ.

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
> On Friday 07 November 2003 03:25 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > I think he was thinking in extended meantone,
> >
> > margo seems to suggest as much here:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_26689.html#26911
>
> Paul,
>
> Thanks for the interesting reference by Margo Schulter....the
question
> remains-did Bull actually have contact with Neopolitan 19-tone
cembali?
> It seems doubtful that these instruments were about very much in
Elizabethan
> England, and I know of no historical record of them being there. I
also don't
> know of any proof that they weren't there, either.

extended meantone in general, though, was clearly widespread.

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Monday 10 November 2003 02:52 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > On Friday 07 November 2003 03:25 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > I think he was thinking in extended meantone,
> > >
> > > margo seems to suggest as much here:
> > >
> > > /tuning/topicId_26689.html#26911
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > Thanks for the interesting reference by Margo Schulter....the
>
> question
>
> > remains-did Bull actually have contact with Neopolitan 19-tone
>
> cembali?
>
> > It seems doubtful that these instruments were about very much in
>
> Elizabethan
>
> > England, and I know of no historical record of them being there. I
>
> also don't
>
> > know of any proof that they weren't there, either.

>
> extended meantone in general, though, was clearly widespread.
>

Do you mean that keyboard instruments had more than 12 keys/octave in
England's Elizabethan period? I know this to be an italian-only phenomenon.

Remember, this is a keyboard composition, as it was published as such....

Best,
AKJ

>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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> subscription to daily digest mode. tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change
> your subscription to individual emails. tuning-help@yahoogroups.com -
> receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Jeff Olliff <jolliff@dslnorthwest.net>

Aaron, Joe, Paul, and List,

Thanks for giving me a start with John Bull's Ut, re, mi, fa sol,
la. I've been playing Byrd's Fantasia right next to it in the book,
without noticing what this learned composer was up to.

The conceit of setting the cantus on a series of rising whole tones
including all twelve keyboard steps (G-A-B-Db-Eb-F and Ab-Bb-C-D-
F#), is accomplished using only two mean-tone tunings, each sharing
six tones in common. The first ten and a half marked bars (through
the third variation), and from bar 42 (the ninth variation) through
the end, function impeccably in a D major flavored mean-tone (the
diminished sixth between A# and F). The five variations from Db
through Bb sound similarly faultless in a G-double-sharp flavored
tuning, where six steps of the D flavored tuning are flattened, and
the wolf has drifted to Dx-B. This could be realized with a double
keyboard instrument, perhaps the mother-daughter Muselar, or any ad
hoc arrangement of dual keyboards. The tunings, set for mean-tone
ears, could be described as follows (positioning the auxiliary
keyboard above):

Cx D# Dx E# F# Fx G# Gx A# B B# C#

D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C C#

The notation used for the five flat-key variations might suggest
sharpening the other set of six tones in D major to a nominal Ab,

D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb Cb C Db

but the transitions encourage the first approach, as might the
owner's abhorrence of broken strings. In the first beat of the
fourth variation on Db, enharmonic values for F#, A#, and D# serve
well as Gb, Bb, and Eb. The virtuoso's hands must leap to Ab-C-Eb
on the alternate keyboard (actually G#-B#-D#) to avoid a falsely
tuned third. Sweetness and light prevail until the ninth variation
on C, where one must fall back to the original temperament by the
second beat, and quite a frolic it is from there.

On second hearing, I am not convinced that the Gx tuning is
decisively better than the Ab. It's sort of humorous to suddenly
tune up to an Ab triad, when you just played what sounded like an A
major triad. I mean, were we really supposed to think that was a
Db? Six of one, half a dozen of the other, you might say, referring
to the mutable steps in the piece. In either case, the piece
adheres to the mean-tone mold, or two molds, if you will.

It's a keyboard composition because it fits the hands, with the
admission of Dr. Bull's rather big hands that could span a tenth
cleanly. The range of only three octaves (F# through f2) may
suggest small instruments, a vocal transcription, or possibly an
exotic Italian keyboard with extra strings. But there's nothing too
exotic about two keyboards, or tuning them in this extravagantly
complimentary way.

Please see Bach Retuned (www.dslnorthwest.net/~jolliff) for more on
the persistence of mean-tone. PS: how do you all include a link in
a Yahoo post? Mine don't underline, but I see it's routine.

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Jeff Olliff <jolliff@dslnorthwest.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > it will automatically underline and be a link in the
> > Yahoo web interface if you include the "http://" at the
> > beginning.
>
> Which is moot unless the link works; it doesn't for me.

Thank you. I'll accept the invitation just to try it, and should
have figured it out by example. Hope this works, no way to tell
until it's posted I guess. I tested the link through a modem
instead of my regular ISP, to be sure.

http://www.dslnorthwest.net/~jolliff

I've been making notes on playing Bach's single clavier music in
various transpositions of the meantone scale, to see what fits. The
music is so interesting that way. When I saw the posts this summer
about Everett Hafner's article on this subject, I decided to post my
page. My article is unfinished, and not targeted at this audience.
I was speaking to the music education establishment, or their next
generation I think, when I wrote it. It needs a revision and a
trim, based on what I've learned from reading the tuning group. It
is nearly indigestible, with comments on every piece in the 48, and
quite a few others, purely regarding enharmonic mismatches, but
without the requisite musical texts.

I do not intend to start a thread on Bach's tuning, which has been
treated at length on several occasions by your most senior panel,
but merely to borrow your forum to make my notes available to other
interested players. Whatever the errors and poor scholarship in the
presentation, the substance of the notes, piece by piece,
demonstrate that a meantone temperament is sufficient with only a
few exceptions. Playing them this way has demonstrated to me that
there is important musical value in doing so, and I hope to persuade
others that the composer intended something like this.

Thanks for your patience. And thanks again to Aaron for the tip
about Bull's Ut Re Mi. My fun this weekend has been to apply
transposed meantones to this piece, and I was rewarded to find that
Dr. Bull too was a transposer of meantones. If he had a 19-note
keyboard, he could and would have made use of more than 12 within
each block, whereas he confined himself to the 12-note meantone
paradigm within his three sections, while inventing the most
outlandish tonality shift between them.

-Jeff

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

Jeff, and all parties interested in Elizabethan virginal music-

Thanks for the response to my first thread...I thought it died!!!

I enjoyed reading your post. I didn't have time to peruse it, but I breezed
through it. I'm out of commission for any deep stuff right now, as I've got
to practice for a big gig coming up...

But when I get a chance, let's take up this topic again, ok? Fascinating
stuff!

Best,
Aaron.

On Saturday 29 November 2003 11:29 pm, Jeff Olliff wrote:
> Aaron, Joe, Paul, and List,
>
> Thanks for giving me a start with John Bull's Ut, re, mi, fa sol,
> la. I've been playing Byrd's Fantasia right next to it in the book,
> without noticing what this learned composer was up to.
>
> The conceit of setting the cantus on a series of rising whole tones
> including all twelve keyboard steps (G-A-B-Db-Eb-F and Ab-Bb-C-D-
> F#), is accomplished using only two mean-tone tunings, each sharing
> six tones in common. The first ten and a half marked bars (through
> the third variation), and from bar 42 (the ninth variation) through
> the end, function impeccably in a D major flavored mean-tone (the
> diminished sixth between A# and F). The five variations from Db
> through Bb sound similarly faultless in a G-double-sharp flavored
> tuning, where six steps of the D flavored tuning are flattened, and
> the wolf has drifted to Dx-B. This could be realized with a double
> keyboard instrument, perhaps the mother-daughter Muselar, or any ad
> hoc arrangement of dual keyboards. The tunings, set for mean-tone
> ears, could be described as follows (positioning the auxiliary
> keyboard above):
>
> Cx D# Dx E# F# Fx G# Gx A# B B# C#
>
> D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C C#
>
> The notation used for the five flat-key variations might suggest
> sharpening the other set of six tones in D major to a nominal Ab,
>
> D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb Cb C Db
>
> but the transitions encourage the first approach, as might the
> owner's abhorrence of broken strings. In the first beat of the
> fourth variation on Db, enharmonic values for F#, A#, and D# serve
> well as Gb, Bb, and Eb. The virtuoso's hands must leap to Ab-C-Eb
> on the alternate keyboard (actually G#-B#-D#) to avoid a falsely
> tuned third. Sweetness and light prevail until the ninth variation
> on C, where one must fall back to the original temperament by the
> second beat, and quite a frolic it is from there.
>
> On second hearing, I am not convinced that the Gx tuning is
> decisively better than the Ab. It's sort of humorous to suddenly
> tune up to an Ab triad, when you just played what sounded like an A
> major triad. I mean, were we really supposed to think that was a
> Db? Six of one, half a dozen of the other, you might say, referring
> to the mutable steps in the piece. In either case, the piece
> adheres to the mean-tone mold, or two molds, if you will.
>
> It's a keyboard composition because it fits the hands, with the
> admission of Dr. Bull's rather big hands that could span a tenth
> cleanly. The range of only three octaves (F# through f2) may
> suggest small instruments, a vocal transcription, or possibly an
> exotic Italian keyboard with extra strings. But there's nothing too
> exotic about two keyboards, or tuning them in this extravagantly
> complimentary way.
>
> Please see Bach Retuned (www.dslnorthwest.net/~jolliff) for more on
> the persistence of mean-tone. PS: how do you all include a link in
> a Yahoo post? Mine don't underline, but I see it's routine.

OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'