Re: Meantone

I appreciate the fascinating talk on this list. I would like to clarify that handhorn players will attempt to adjust their tuning in any way possible but the instrument simply gives the harmonics. The tones we use are the major tone 9:8 and the minor tone 10:9 as they occur most frequently in our mostly simple music from the eighteenth century. Also I think the pianist Robert Levin uses meantone in his fortepiano CD's of Mozart. I had only a brief chat when he was in Brisbane last year, but I think he said the notes on the CD mention the tuning system.

Cheers

Michael Hugh Dixon
MandLDixon@bigpond.com

-----Original Message-----
From: DWolf77309@cs.com <DWolf77309@cs.com>
To: tuning@onelist.com <tuning@onelist.com>
Date: Monday, 13 September 1999 17:41
Subject: AW.: [tuning] RE: Role of quarter tones in Arabic Music

>From: DWolf77309@cs.com
>
>PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com:
>
><<
> Have you seen meantone around the West lately? >>
>
>Sure. Every decent harpsichordist can tune it. And it exists elsewhere, too.
>At random: Mitsuko Uchida's performances of the Mozart Piano Sonatas,
>handhorn players, older Irish concertina's, many tracker organs, Ligeti's
>_Passacaglia Ungharese_, several works by Douglas Leedy.
>
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Tom's post helped me clarify some interesting perspectives on meantone.

While each key in a meantone variant is identical to any other, sans wolves,
one cannot simply substitute one variant for another without changing its
aesthetic impact.

There seems to be 4 dimensions to meantone, from micro to macro:
a. The division of a(ny) major third, which is equal
b. The division of a(ny) specific octave, which is unequal
c. The transposition to a(ny) different key, which is equal
d. The immigration to a(ny) variant of meantone, which is unequal

Margo, your post seems to ignore the irregular tunings that were not
circular well temperaments. It seems, based on the above, that meantone represented
equal divisions in music in juxtaposition to irregular tuning (Grammateus,
Schlick, Tost, Werckmeister). It may be that meantone and irregular tuning
were the two pillars of aesthetics, each with some evolution. In this sense,
12-tet is a meantone descendent.

best, Johnny Reinhard

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Thank you, Margo, for your comments.

Margo: Lindley, forexample, emphasizes that Schlick's temperament would have
had at least
what I'd call a "semi-Wolf" at C#-G#/Ab, about 8-10 cents wide, and
which Schlick himself urges we avoid.

Johnny: It seems that there is a standard irregular tuning family, much like
the meantone family. They commonly have 20 major and minor keys (such as
with Fischer). This indicates there are 2 "semi-wolves" as you call them. I
have seen the use of the term "dog-fifths" for these (for being more tame than
wolves...instead of howling, they merely bark).

Margo: Finessing only one or two notes in 1/4-comma like G#/Ab or Eb/D#, as
described by Praetorius and
advocated by Werckmeister for those not interested in a circulating
well-temperament, would be unlikely to repair the Wolf fifth, although
it might alleviate it a bit, say to something like 1/6-comma.

Johnny: I could not find this in Werckmeister's Musical Temperament, which I
have just typed out to put with a new book I have written on Bach's tuning.
Do you recall where you saw this?

Margo: The Grammateus temperament is a bit different, because that is
primarily based on Pythagorean tuning with diatonic whole tones
divided into two equal semitones -- that is, each equal to 9:8^(1/2),
or about 101.955 cents (e.g. F-F#-G); E-F and B-C are the
usual 256:243 or 90.224 cents.

Johnny: Doesn't it have 20 keys only like other irregular tuning?

Margo: Jorgensen considers this as circulating, with two fifths at 1/2
Pythagorean comma narrow, or just on the verge of being Wolves by this
definition.

Johnny: While modern ears might enjoy a bark or even a howl, the earliers
(as opposed to the moderns) strictly avoided moving in their territory. And we
are speaking of improvisation, as composition strictly avoided the canine
keys. I must disagree with Jorgensen; there is no circulating without a
circle, and that begins on paper with Werckmeister.

Margo: Maybe, like Schlick's, it could be
called "semi-circulating" -- but not necessarily by intent, as far as I
know. Dowland's irregular lute tuning is also interesting, and that has
at least one Wolf fifth, as I recall.

Johnny: Dowland's tuning has different pitch distinctions for the same
pitch, making it an irregular irregular tuning. As a lute tuning that does not
need to make a full circle, it may best be categorized as a different can of
beans.

What do you think?

best, Johnny

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