Hi Joe

Monz,

Thanks for the link to your website. My post yesterday was a few thoughts off the top of my head to try to stir up a little meaningful discussion on the nature of music. Microtonal for the sake of microtonal has little meaning for me--how does it move us beyond Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler--even Copeland and Bernstein? Does it grab me like these guys? These guys have survived because they can still touch our souls--their music has kung fu. It wasn't intellectual, commercial or entertainment(well maybe a little)--but more importantly it was an expression of the human soul--even through the system of compromise of 12TET.

Years ago in the 70's I worked for Austin Organ Company and then a few years with a builder who restored old tracker organs in New England--I got very involved in tuning and did extensive research in the proliferation of tuning systems around the time of Bach and Silbermann(famous organ builder during Bach's time)--Bach couldn't have done what he did without 12TET. It was a revolution, but it contained its own limitation within its structure. I would love to converse with you about the simple ideas I have been working with for years--unfortunately I am not a composer--I doodle around on the horn with the overtone series and bought an old ensoniq sampler keyboard that I can tune but never much success in creating a composition.

But think on this--imagine that God exists as the One vibration/eternity. All of the infinite harmonics generated from this one vibration are the foundation of the universe. And 2 and the powers of 2, the feminine or form of the creative energy, form the generations which become the structure in which the universe exists (this is all right out of Hindu music theory). And the prime numbers are unique creations, related only to itself and the One, that unfold within each successive generation. Each generation is an octave in the harmonic overtone series. Each prime also initiates an infinite harmonic field of its own through its relationship with the feminine (2).

My simple thought is: that as when I sit in the living room and play my horn, objects around the room resonate with different tones I produce, sympathetic vibration, so we too in the worlds of time, from atoms to sunsets, vibrate sympathetically with the "tones" of the eternal creation and conversely we can explore and perhaps come to understand some of the relationships of the eternal through musical exploration. But the tones must be pure so that they reinforce the fundamental--and I believe that we can tune the fundamentals to vibrate with elements of the Eternal. Hence my preoccupation with Fundamental pitches as ultimately being more important than the intervals themselves--in a scale the intervals should reinforce the fundamental.

Thank you for your patience.
Bruce

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Kanzelmeyer <bkanzelmeyer@y...>
wrote:

> Monz,
>
> Thanks for the link to your website. My post yesterday was
> a few thoughts off the top of my head to try to stir up a
> little meaningful discussion on the nature of music.
> Microtonal for the sake of microtonal has little meaning for
> me--how does it move us beyond Bach, Mozart, Beethoven,
> Wagner, Mahler--even Copeland and Bernstein? Does it grab
> me like these guys? These guys have survived because they
> can still touch our souls--their music has kung fu. It wasn't
> intellectual, commercial or entertainment(well maybe a little)
> --but more importantly it was an expression of the human soul--

yikes! you think there's no more than "maybe a little"
intellectual content in the music of Bach or Mahler?
i find that surprising.

(and i should warn you now that for me,
Mahler comes right after God.)

but yes, i agree that the primary reason why we view their
music as great is because "they can still touch our souls".
in fact, in the case of Mahler it amazes me how emotionally
affecting his music is *despite* the heavy intellectual
underpinning. (i told you ... right after God.)

> even through the system of compromise of 12TET.
>
> Years ago in the 70's I worked for Austin Organ Company
> and then a few years with a builder who restored old tracker
> organs in New England--I got very involved in tuning and did
> extensive research in the proliferation of tuning systems
> around the time of Bach and Silbermann (famous organ builder
> during Bach's time)--Bach couldn't have done what he did
> without 12TET. It was a revolution, but it contained its
> own limitation within its structure.

it's been argued by several people, including most prominently
on this list Johnny Reinhard (Werkmeister III) and Anton
Kellner (with his own reconstructed "Bach tuning") that
Bach's preferred tuning was not 12edo (AKA 12-tET), but
rather a 12-tone "circulating" temperament which has wide
variety of interval sizes.

i think by now it's pretty firmly established that Bach
wrote his _Well-Tempered Klavier_ *not* to demonstrate 12edo
but rather to demonstrate a circulating well-temperament.

as for the preferred tunings of other composers in your list ...

Mozart had two intended tunings: for keyboards, a circulating
well-temperament, and for orchestral works, a meantone along
the lines of 55edo or 1/6-comma meantone. see my webpage:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/55edo/55edo.htm

and even at his late date, Mahler commented that it was too
bad that Europe gave up meantone. see my page

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/schoenberg/Vienna1905.htm

around the years 1904 - 1907, when Mahler was in close
contact with Schoenberg ... which in fact are precisely
the years that Mahler's harmonic practice began leaning
away from meantone and more towards 12edo -- clearly
a result of discussions with Schoenberg.

if you examine the detailed explanation of 12edo which
i give at the beginning of this page:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/bingo.htm

you should get an idea of exactly why 12edo became such
a universally accepted tuning.

indeed, 12edo "contained its own limitation within its
structure" ... but how could any tuning with only 12 notes,
and all of them space equally, *not* expose its limitations
fairly quickly?

Schoenberg was the first composer to really see this,
and he reacted strongly, first by experimenting with
quarter-tones, then by creating his "12-tone method".

... fortunately, we today are in a technological position
to be able to gleefully experiment with any tuning system
we desire.

> I would love to converse with you about the simple ideas
> I have been working with for years--unfortunately I am not
> a composer--I doodle around on the horn with the overtone
> series and bought an old ensoniq sampler keyboard that I
> can tune but never much success in creating a composition.
>
> But think on this--imagine that God exists as the One
> vibration/eternity. All of the infinite harmonics generated
> from this one vibration are the foundation of the universe.
> And 2 and the powers of 2, the feminine or form of the
> creative energy, form the generations which become the
> structure in which the universe exists (this is all right
> out of Hindu music theory). And the prime numbers are unique
> creations, related only to itself and the One, that unfold
> within each successive generation. Each generation is an
> octave in the harmonic overtone series. Each prime also
> initiates an infinite harmonic field of its own through its
> relationship with the feminine (2).
>
> My simple thought is: that as when I sit in the living room
> and play my horn, objects around the room resonate with
> different tones I produce, sympathetic vibration, so we too
> in the worlds of time, from atoms to sunsets, vibrate
> sympathetically with the "tones" of the eternal creation
> and conversely we can explore and perhaps come to understand
> some of the relationships of the eternal through musical
> exploration. But the tones must be pure so that they reinforce
> the fundamental--and I believe that we can tune the fundamentals
> to vibrate with elements of the Eternal. Hence my preoccupation
> with Fundamental pitches as ultimately being more important
> than the intervals themselves--in a scale the intervals should
> reinforce the fundamental.
>
> Thank you for your patience.
> Bruce

your ideas are finding lots of "sympathetic vibrations" here!
take a look at this:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/prime.htm

and my own microtonal software, currently under heavy
development, is founded on the concept of "prime-space":

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/primespace.htm

from time to time, people on this list complain about posts
that discuss tuning without any relevance to music, and i'm
always one of the people to provide a counter-argument.
but i decided a few years ago to provide a home where
discussions of "cosmic" tuning matters are most welcome:

/celestial-tuning/

and the piece which gave birth to that list is given
more fully here:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/solarsystem/solar-system.htm

on the subject of God and vibrations, i've written this;

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/philos/soundbeginning.htm

-monz