Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Buzz Feiten and well temprament

I have joined this group in order to hopefully answer a question
which I am unqualified to answer, concerning the exact type of well-
temprament that exists as guitar "Feitenization". In the last few
years, the Buzz Feiten tuning system has been adopted by many
professional guitarists (it is a retrofit mod.; as well, a number of
top-level manufacturers and custom luthiers have adoped the system).
I have read the patents and own two Feitenized guitars (an acoustic
and electric). To my ear, his system has indeed solved what he states
(in his patent) has been a fretted instrument problem unsolved for
400 years.

What he did is summed up in the latest patent 6,359,202 (Feiten;
Howard B.). Go here: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
click "quick search", type in author's name (or patent #), to read
it, and there are also numerous figures to view (click on "images").

There are two aspects to the physics of Feiten guitar mods. First,
the nut-to-1st fret distance is compensated by a "Feiten compensation
factor," adjusting for string tension/gauge and scale length. Then, a
specific tuning schema is implemented, which involves tuning certain
open strings +/- an amount of cents, and also intonating the octave
(12th fret) +/-, resulting in a well temprament of some type. Towards
the bottom of the patent, you can read various temprament
embodiments.

So, what's the temprament? Is it his own, or? And, why does it seem
to work so well? Feiten credits Verckmeister, but, to my knowledge,
divulges nothing more specific. Knowing the type of temprament
(assuming it's "well"), does this confirm that individual keys will
have coloration?

Well, that's my question(s). Sorry for the lengthy mail. I'd like to
fill in my huge knowledge gap a little, if possible. Thank you.
R. Gilbert

🔗backfromthesilo <backfromthesilo@yahoo.com>

Feitenization cannot be as much as they kinda imply that it is. It
is easy to think about and understand that there is simply no way
to get a consistent temperament using only the changes he's
made. That isn't to say it isn't an improvement. Read:

http://www.byersguitars.com/research/intonation.html

There are intonation issues with physical instruments that are
not always adjusted for that have nothing to do with
temperament. I am quite certain that this is a larger portion of
the Feiten system than some sort of new temperament.

I will add that anyone intent on using mystery, unclear wordings,
and in some cases flat out misleading information is certainly
hiding something. I think Feiten is hiding the fact that his system
is not SO unique or amazing. But I agree it sounds good.
Though it is also a rip-off.

I'm still interested to hear other people's comments though.

-Aaron Wolf

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dynamicmonk" <gilbert@i...>
wrote:
> I have joined this group in order to hopefully answer a question
> which I am unqualified to answer, concerning the exact type of
well-
> temprament that exists as guitar "Feitenization". In the last few
> years, the Buzz Feiten tuning system has been adopted by
many
> professional guitarists (it is a retrofit mod.; as well, a number
of
> top-level manufacturers and custom luthiers have adoped the
system).
> I have read the patents and own two Feitenized guitars (an
acoustic
> and electric). To my ear, his system has indeed solved what he
states
> (in his patent) has been a fretted instrument problem unsolved
for
> 400 years.
>
> What he did is summed up in the latest patent 6,359,202
(Feiten;
> Howard B.). Go here: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
> click "quick search", type in author's name (or patent #), to read
> it, and there are also numerous figures to view (click on
"images").
>
> There are two aspects to the physics of Feiten guitar mods.
First,
> the nut-to-1st fret distance is compensated by a "Feiten
compensation
> factor," adjusting for string tension/gauge and scale length.
Then, a
> specific tuning schema is implemented, which involves tuning
certain
> open strings +/- an amount of cents, and also intonating the
octave
> (12th fret) +/-, resulting in a well temprament of some type.
Towards
> the bottom of the patent, you can read various temprament
> embodiments.
>
> So, what's the temprament? Is it his own, or? And, why does it
seem
> to work so well? Feiten credits Verckmeister, but, to my
knowledge,
> divulges nothing more specific. Knowing the type of
temprament
> (assuming it's "well"), does this confirm that individual keys will
> have coloration?
>
> Well, that's my question(s). Sorry for the lengthy mail. I'd like to
> fill in my huge knowledge gap a little, if possible. Thank you.
> R. Gilbert

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

aaron, you are correct. the primary advantage of feiten's system is
that it corrects the usual tendency of the lower frets to sound
sharp, due to the additional tension needed to bend the strings down
to the frets in that position. this adjustment has been a godsend for
certain instrumentalists -- for example stu hamm (electric bassist)
said his 1st fret notes were 9 cents sharp before the adjustment --
but the result is simply a much more accurate rendition of 12-equal
(with a touch of octave stretch). great for modern studio settings
with pianos, synths, etc. but the relationship with historical "well-
tempering" schemes is nil, and much of the marketing buzz (no pun
intended) around this is pure tripe.

the "compensated nut" is not a new idea. hopefully it's possible to
have this done without infringing buzz's patent. for getting accurate
microtonal tunings on a steel-string acoustic guitar or electric
bass, if the frets are placed according to "naive" string length
calculations (as they almost always are), a compensated nut (and of
course adjustable bridge saddles) would seem to be essential. or you
can go dante rosati's route and place the fretlets individually for
each string:

http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "backfromthesilo"
<backfromthesilo@y...> wrote:
> Feitenization cannot be as much as they kinda imply that it is. It
> is easy to think about and understand that there is simply no way
> to get a consistent temperament using only the changes he's
> made. That isn't to say it isn't an improvement. Read:
>
> http://www.byersguitars.com/research/intonation.html
>
> There are intonation issues with physical instruments that are
> not always adjusted for that have nothing to do with
> temperament. I am quite certain that this is a larger portion of
> the Feiten system than some sort of new temperament.
>
> I will add that anyone intent on using mystery, unclear wordings,
> and in some cases flat out misleading information is certainly
> hiding something. I think Feiten is hiding the fact that his
system
> is not SO unique or amazing. But I agree it sounds good.
> Though it is also a rip-off.
>
> I'm still interested to hear other people's comments though.
>
> -Aaron Wolf
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dynamicmonk" <gilbert@i...>
> wrote:
> > I have joined this group in order to hopefully answer a question
> > which I am unqualified to answer, concerning the exact type of
> well-
> > temprament that exists as guitar "Feitenization". In the last few
> > years, the Buzz Feiten tuning system has been adopted by
> many
> > professional guitarists (it is a retrofit mod.; as well, a number
> of
> > top-level manufacturers and custom luthiers have adoped the
> system).
> > I have read the patents and own two Feitenized guitars (an
> acoustic
> > and electric). To my ear, his system has indeed solved what he
> states
> > (in his patent) has been a fretted instrument problem unsolved
> for
> > 400 years.
> >
> > What he did is summed up in the latest patent 6,359,202
> (Feiten;
> > Howard B.). Go here: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
> > click "quick search", type in author's name (or patent #), to
read
> > it, and there are also numerous figures to view (click on
> "images").
> >
> > There are two aspects to the physics of Feiten guitar mods.
> First,
> > the nut-to-1st fret distance is compensated by a "Feiten
> compensation
> > factor," adjusting for string tension/gauge and scale length.
> Then, a
> > specific tuning schema is implemented, which involves tuning
> certain
> > open strings +/- an amount of cents, and also intonating the
> octave
> > (12th fret) +/-, resulting in a well temprament of some type.
> Towards
> > the bottom of the patent, you can read various temprament
> > embodiments.
> >
> > So, what's the temprament? Is it his own, or? And, why does it
> seem
> > to work so well? Feiten credits Verckmeister, but, to my
> knowledge,
> > divulges nothing more specific. Knowing the type of
> temprament
> > (assuming it's "well"), does this confirm that individual keys
will
> > have coloration?
> >
> > Well, that's my question(s). Sorry for the lengthy mail. I'd like
to
> > fill in my huge knowledge gap a little, if possible. Thank you.
> > R. Gilbert

🔗dynamicmonk <gilbert@iyume.com>

Paul, Aaron,

Thank you for your comments and the informative links. From your
letters, it seems that the Feitein method has nothing to do with well
temperament, but is a compensatory means of achieving equal
temperament on the guitar (correct me if I'm wrong). This explains
why studio players I know find it a joy to be in tune with keyboards,
up and down the neck. Then this recommended tuning (with compensated
nut):

Electric Guitar
(Preferred Embodiment)
Note Open (Cents) l2th Fret
E(1) 00 00
B +0 00
G -02 +01
D -02 +01
A -02 00
E(6) -02 00

puts the guitar into better equal temperament. (What happens when
some strings are fretted, while others are not? Take a D chord,
strings 1,2,3, played on 2nd and 3rd frets, with strings 4,5 open.
SWouldn't this chord, played across 5 strings, sound odd?)

I don't want to be in the position of defending Feiten. From your
indications, much hard work (mathematical and otherwise) has been
done and made available in the public domain; these sources seem
uncredited. It is a more proper solution to design a nut compensated
for each string. (There is a patent: 6,433,264 Gimpel and Lindhauer,
August, 2002).

I will say that Feiten has created a workable solution, easily
implemented by the dedicated guitar tech, worldwide (and makers),
that imho is a definitive improvement. I realize from reading your
comments that Feiten's system is a compromise; it may be this aspect
of compromise that could allow it to flourish, it's too early to say.
Frankly, it remains appreciated by a small percent of players, and
tuning by ear becomes impossible (I can't hear -2 cents)--you need to
buy the Korg DT7 tuner, which has a "Feiten" mode. Without an
available tuner, the system is dead, pragmatically. I should mention
that it's possible to tune by ear to chords, but it takes time. I
don't know Feiten. He's recorded with a number of legendary musicians
over his career. Watching his "Retrofitters" DVD, I feel his passion
for getting the guitar to produce a sweet, singing sustain, in (equal
tempered) tune. The mystique is anathema to me though. In fairness,
for the non-professional, any discussion of temprament is obtuse and
potentially off-putting--unless you take a course.

In the DVD, Feiten mentions Verckmeister and well temperament-- who
may have inspired him, but the mention of well temperament is
misleading.

I don't see exactly why the above tuning embodiment is (relatively)
effective, across 6 strings and up and down the neck, in whatever
key. That is, why the nut compensation+tuning has created a closer
equal temperament, no doubt needing a deeper mathematical knowledge
in order to comprehend more precisely.

Thanks you,
R. Gilbert

> aaron, you are correct. the primary advantage of feiten's system is
> that it corrects the usual tendency of the lower frets to sound
> sharp, due to the additional tension needed to bend the strings
down
> to the frets in that position. this adjustment has been a godsend
for
> certain instrumentalists -- for example stu hamm (electric bassist)
> said his 1st fret notes were 9 cents sharp before the adjustment --
> but the result is simply a much more accurate rendition of 12-equal
> (with a touch of octave stretch). great for modern studio settings
> with pianos, synths, etc. but the relationship with
historical "well-
> tempering" schemes is nil, and much of the marketing buzz (no pun
> intended) around this is pure tripe.
>
> the "compensated nut" is not a new idea. hopefully it's possible to
> have this done without infringing buzz's patent. for getting
accurate
> microtonal tunings on a steel-string acoustic guitar or electric
> bass, if the frets are placed according to "naive" string length
> calculations (as they almost always are), a compensated nut (and of
> course adjustable bridge saddles) would seem to be essential. or
you
> can go dante rosati's route and place the fretlets individually for
> each string:
>
> http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "backfromthesilo"
> <backfromthesilo@y...> wrote:
> > Feitenization cannot be as much as they kinda imply that it is.
It
> > is easy to think about and understand that there is simply no way
> > to get a consistent temperament using only the changes he's
> > made. That isn't to say it isn't an improvement. Read:
> >
> > http://www.byersguitars.com/research/intonation.html
> >
> > There are intonation issues with physical instruments that are
> > not always adjusted for that have nothing to do with
> > temperament. I am quite certain that this is a larger portion of
> > the Feiten system than some sort of new temperament.
> >
> > I will add that anyone intent on using mystery, unclear wordings,
> > and in some cases flat out misleading information is certainly
> > hiding something. I think Feiten is hiding the fact that his
> system
> > is not SO unique or amazing. But I agree it sounds good.
> > Though it is also a rip-off.
> >
> > I'm still interested to hear other people's comments though.
> >
> > -Aaron Wolf
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dynamicmonk" <gilbert@i...>
> > wrote:
> > > I have joined this group in order to hopefully answer a
question
> > > which I am unqualified to answer, concerning the exact type of
> > well-
> > > temprament that exists as guitar "Feitenization". In the last
few
> > > years, the Buzz Feiten tuning system has been adopted by
> > many
> > > professional guitarists (it is a retrofit mod.; as well, a
number
> > of
> > > top-level manufacturers and custom luthiers have adoped the
> > system).
> > > I have read the patents and own two Feitenized guitars (an
> > acoustic
> > > and electric). To my ear, his system has indeed solved what he
> > states
> > > (in his patent) has been a fretted instrument problem unsolved
> > for
> > > 400 years.
> > >
> > > What he did is summed up in the latest patent 6,359,202
> > (Feiten;
> > > Howard B.). Go here: http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
> > > click "quick search", type in author's name (or patent #), to
> read
> > > it, and there are also numerous figures to view (click on
> > "images").
> > >
> > > There are two aspects to the physics of Feiten guitar mods.
> > First,
> > > the nut-to-1st fret distance is compensated by a "Feiten
> > compensation
> > > factor," adjusting for string tension/gauge and scale length.
> > Then, a
> > > specific tuning schema is implemented, which involves tuning
> > certain
> > > open strings +/- an amount of cents, and also intonating the
> > octave
> > > (12th fret) +/-, resulting in a well temprament of some type.
> > Towards
> > > the bottom of the patent, you can read various temprament
> > > embodiments.
> > >
> > > So, what's the temprament? Is it his own, or? And, why does it
> > seem
> > > to work so well? Feiten credits Verckmeister, but, to my
> > knowledge,
> > > divulges nothing more specific. Knowing the type of
> > temprament
> > > (assuming it's "well"), does this confirm that individual keys
> will
> > > have coloration?
> > >
> > > Well, that's my question(s). Sorry for the lengthy mail. I'd
like
> to
> > > fill in my huge knowledge gap a little, if possible. Thank you.
> > > R. Gilbert

🔗backfromthesilo <backfromthesilo@yahoo.com>

It would seem you didn't read the link I gave you at Byer's guitars.
That explains the issues, except for classical, nylon string
instruments. It's all there pretty much. I'm not saying the Feiten
should give all the details of temperament in all his literature, but
it is obvious that he has intentionally misled the public about the
effects of his tuning. It is a combination of a real concept with
lots of dishonest, vague marketing. It is almost as if Feiten tries
his hardest to convince normal people that tuning is too
complicated to understand. He'd rather people give up and not
try to understand, otherwise they might see that his innovation is
not so incredibly groundbreaking. He says to the average
customer "you don't want to really think about these things, it's
complicated, just TRUST ME" and then charges $hundreds for a
modification that shouldn't be so expensive (but I'll agree is
worthwhile).

As for the tuning issue, if you have a decent ear, you can get rid
of your korg tuner. Feiten even makes it clear how to tune
without a tuner. It's simple. I don't know his exact system, but as
long as you don't tune OPEN strings, but instead (after one string
is in tune) tune fretted notes to other fretted notes, you'll basically
be fine. He does have an exact recommendation of which notes
to tune, and it isn't really more difficult than traditional tuning
methods. But if this were emphasized they wouldn't sell as
many tuners and Feiten wouldn't get his licensing share on
those too.

Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dynamicmonk" <gilbert@i...>
wrote:
> Paul, Aaron,
>
> Thank you for your comments and the informative links. From
your
> letters, it seems that the Feitein method has nothing to do with
well
> temperament, but is a compensatory means of achieving
equal
> temperament on the guitar (correct me if I'm wrong). This
explains
> why studio players I know find it a joy to be in tune with
keyboards,
> up and down the neck. Then this recommended tuning (with
compensated
> nut):
>
> Electric Guitar
> (Preferred Embodiment)
> Note Open (Cents) l2th Fret
> E(1) 00 00
> B +0 00
> G -02 +01
> D -02 +01
> A -02 00
> E(6) -02 00
>
> puts the guitar into better equal temperament. (What happens
when
> some strings are fretted, while others are not? Take a D chord,
> strings 1,2,3, played on 2nd and 3rd frets, with strings 4,5
open.
> SWouldn't this chord, played across 5 strings, sound odd?)
>
> I don't want to be in the position of defending Feiten. From your
> indications, much hard work (mathematical and otherwise)
has been
> done and made available in the public domain; these sources
seem
> uncredited. It is a more proper solution to design a nut
compensated
> for each string. (There is a patent: 6,433,264 Gimpel and
Lindhauer,
> August, 2002).
>
> I will say that Feiten has created a workable solution, easily
> implemented by the dedicated guitar tech, worldwide (and
makers),
> that imho is a definitive improvement. I realize from reading
your
> comments that Feiten's system is a compromise; it may be
this aspect
> of compromise that could allow it to flourish, it's too early to
say.
> Frankly, it remains appreciated by a small percent of players,
and
> tuning by ear becomes impossible (I can't hear -2 cents)--you
need to
> buy the Korg DT7 tuner, which has a "Feiten" mode. Without an
> available tuner, the system is dead, pragmatically. I should
mention
> that it's possible to tune by ear to chords, but it takes time. I
> don't know Feiten. He's recorded with a number of legendary
musicians
> over his career. Watching his "Retrofitters" DVD, I feel his
passion
> for getting the guitar to produce a sweet, singing sustain, in
(equal
> tempered) tune. The mystique is anathema to me though. In
fairness,
> for the non-professional, any discussion of temprament is
obtuse and
> potentially off-putting--unless you take a course.
>
> In the DVD, Feiten mentions Verckmeister and well
temperament-- who
> may have inspired him, but the mention of well temperament is
> misleading.
>
> I don't see exactly why the above tuning embodiment is
(relatively)
> effective, across 6 strings and up and down the neck, in
whatever
> key. That is, why the nut compensation+tuning has created a
closer
> equal temperament, no doubt needing a deeper mathematical
knowledge
> in order to comprehend more precisely.
>
> Thanks you,
> R. Gilbert
>
>
>
>
> > aaron, you are correct. the primary advantage of feiten's
system is
> > that it corrects the usual tendency of the lower frets to sound
> > sharp, due to the additional tension needed to bend the
strings
> down
> > to the frets in that position. this adjustment has been a
godsend
> for
> > certain instrumentalists -- for example stu hamm (electric
bassist)
> > said his 1st fret notes were 9 cents sharp before the
adjustment --
> > but the result is simply a much more accurate rendition of
12-equal
> > (with a touch of octave stretch). great for modern studio
settings
> > with pianos, synths, etc. but the relationship with
> historical "well-
> > tempering" schemes is nil, and much of the marketing buzz
(no pun
> > intended) around this is pure tripe.
> >
> > the "compensated nut" is not a new idea. hopefully it's
possible to
> > have this done without infringing buzz's patent. for getting
> accurate
> > microtonal tunings on a steel-string acoustic guitar or electric
> > bass, if the frets are placed according to "naive" string length
> > calculations (as they almost always are), a compensated nut
(and of
> > course adjustable bridge saddles) would seem to be
essential. or
> you
> > can go dante rosati's route and place the fretlets individually
for
> > each string:
> >
> > http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/justguitar.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "backfromthesilo"
> > <backfromthesilo@y...> wrote:
> > > Feitenization cannot be as much as they kinda imply that it
is.
> It
> > > is easy to think about and understand that there is simply
no way
> > > to get a consistent temperament using only the changes
he's
> > > made. That isn't to say it isn't an improvement. Read:
> > >
> > > http://www.byersguitars.com/research/intonation.html
> > >
> > > There are intonation issues with physical instruments that
are
> > > not always adjusted for that have nothing to do with
> > > temperament. I am quite certain that this is a larger portion
of
> > > the Feiten system than some sort of new temperament.
> > >
> > > I will add that anyone intent on using mystery, unclear
wordings,
> > > and in some cases flat out misleading information is
certainly
> > > hiding something. I think Feiten is hiding the fact that his
> > system
> > > is not SO unique or amazing. But I agree it sounds good.
> > > Though it is also a rip-off.
> > >
> > > I'm still interested to hear other people's comments
though.
> > >
> > > -Aaron Wolf
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dynamicmonk"
<gilbert@i...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I have joined this group in order to hopefully answer a
> question
> > > > which I am unqualified to answer, concerning the exact
type of
> > > well-
> > > > temprament that exists as guitar "Feitenization". In the
last
> few
> > > > years, the Buzz Feiten tuning system has been adopted
by
> > > many
> > > > professional guitarists (it is a retrofit mod.; as well, a
> number
> > > of
> > > > top-level manufacturers and custom luthiers have
adoped the
> > > system).
> > > > I have read the patents and own two Feitenized guitars
(an
> > > acoustic
> > > > and electric). To my ear, his system has indeed solved
what he
> > > states
> > > > (in his patent) has been a fretted instrument problem
unsolved
> > > for
> > > > 400 years.
> > > >
> > > > What he did is summed up in the latest patent 6,359,202
> > > (Feiten;
> > > > Howard B.). Go here:
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
> > > > click "quick search", type in author's name (or patent #), to
> > read
> > > > it, and there are also numerous figures to view (click on
> > > "images").
> > > >
> > > > There are two aspects to the physics of Feiten guitar
mods.
> > > First,
> > > > the nut-to-1st fret distance is compensated by a "Feiten
> > > compensation
> > > > factor," adjusting for string tension/gauge and scale
length.
> > > Then, a
> > > > specific tuning schema is implemented, which involves
tuning
> > > certain
> > > > open strings +/- an amount of cents, and also intonating
the
> > > octave
> > > > (12th fret) +/-, resulting in a well temprament of some
type.
> > > Towards
> > > > the bottom of the patent, you can read various
temprament
> > > > embodiments.
> > > >
> > > > So, what's the temprament? Is it his own, or? And, why
does it
> > > seem
> > > > to work so well? Feiten credits Verckmeister, but, to my
> > > knowledge,
> > > > divulges nothing more specific. Knowing the type of
> > > temprament
> > > > (assuming it's "well"), does this confirm that individual
keys
> > will
> > > > have coloration?
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's my question(s). Sorry for the lengthy mail. I'd
> like
> > to
> > > > fill in my huge knowledge gap a little, if possible. Thank
you.
> > > > R. Gilbert

🔗dynamicmonk <gilbert@iyume.com>

Aaron,

I read it, but paragraphs like this:
"This set is, in theory, precisely in tune, but it does not
necessarily preciesly conform to equal tempered fret placement.
Consider, for a moment, our original equation for fret placement. You
can generalize this equation by replacing X sub zero with "a" and
add "b" at the end: "X sub n equals a times 2 to the minus n over 12
power plus b". In this form, which I have called the cannonical form
of the equation for fret placement, if b equals 0 you are left with
the first equation given above. When b has a positive value, it
represents saddle setback from the nominal position. "a" equals scale
length. With the help of this equation we can optimize nut and saddle
positions. The trick is to use statistical methods to find the equal-
tempered set of fret placements that most precisely matches our
experimentally determined set."

I found challenging. I hope you will allow this lacuna in your
inevitable logic. Nonetheless, though slighly quesy, I further
pursued the question, finding another link, rather simplistic for you
I fear, but perhaps these eight pages explain the basics?

http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation1.html

Reading the ground-zero explication above, In the words of Dr. Roger
S. Fouts, "Fundamental to removing ignorance and replacing it with
understanding is communication" (Chimpanzee and Human Communication
Institute, Central Washington University, 1996).

Best regards,
R. Gilbert

"backfromthesilo" <backfromthesilo@y...> wrote:
> It would seem you didn't read the link I gave you at Byer's
guitars.
> That explains the issues, except for classical, nylon string
> instruments. It's all there pretty much. I'm not saying the
Feiten
> should give all the details of temperament in all his literature,
but
> it is obvious that he has intentionally misled the public about the
> effects of his tuning. It is a combination of a real concept with
> lots of dishonest, vague marketing. It is almost as if Feiten
tries
> his hardest to convince normal people that tuning is too
> complicated to understand. He'd rather people give up and not
> try to understand, otherwise they might see that his innovation is
> not so incredibly groundbreaking. He says to the average
> customer "you don't want to really think about these things, it's
> complicated, just TRUST ME" and then charges $hundreds for a
> modification that shouldn't be so expensive (but I'll agree is
> worthwhile).
>
> As for the tuning issue, if you have a decent ear, you can get rid
> of your korg tuner. Feiten even makes it clear how to tune
> without a tuner. It's simple. I don't know his exact system, but
as
> long as you don't tune OPEN strings, but instead (after one string
> is in tune) tune fretted notes to other fretted notes, you'll
basically
> be fine. He does have an exact recommendation of which notes
> to tune, and it isn't really more difficult than traditional tuning
> methods. But if this were emphasized they wouldn't sell as
> many tuners and Feiten wouldn't get his licensing share on
> those too.
>
> Aaron
>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗dynamicmonk <gilbert@iyume.com>

Thanks. Sure, makes sense.

So, for the most part, nut compensation and some +/-cents on certain
open strings relates to getting the physical properties of the guitar
(incl. string tension and action) to intonate closer to an exact
equal temperament.

Earlier, someone mentioned "scale stretching." I think in relation to
intonating certain notes (strings) +a few cents at the 12th fret. How
does this work? I imagine it has to do with staying in good equal
temperament up and down the neck-- in the sample intonation I showed
earlier, only the 3rd and 4th strings are intonated this way:

G -02 +01
D -02 +01

+cents at the 12th fret. The other strings are +00. Why only these
two strings? I am wondering if it has to do with the difference
between wound and unwound strings. That is, the (thicker, more
tensioned) D and G are "compensated" to be in equal temperament with
especially the (unwound) B?

I won't go on about this much more, I do grasp the general idea...

Thanks,
R. Gilbert

> > I don't see exactly why the above tuning embodiment is
(relatively)
> > effective, across 6 strings and up and down the neck, in whatever
> > key. That is, why the nut compensation+tuning has created a
closer
> > equal temperament, no doubt needing a deeper mathematical
knowledge
> > in order to comprehend more precisely.
>
> not at all -- it's very straightforward. the first few frets near
the
> nut tend to sound sharp because their positions are usually
> calculated without taking the deflection of the string into
account.
> on guitars that actually have a nut, as opposed to a "zero fret",
it
> takes more force to push the string down to the first few frets,
than
> to any other fret. this is because the angle the string will make
> relative to its "rest" position will be highest when you push it
down
> to the first fret, second-highest when you push it down to the
second
> fret, etc. to compensate this, just move the nut toward the bridge
a
> little bit (mathematically calculated, it is true), then re-adjust
> the bridge saddles as you normally do, and voila -- you're much
> better in tune. of course, this could all be made more precise with
> physics (and therefore mathematics), but if you've ever *felt* how
> it's harder to bend the string at the 1st and 2nd frets than
> elsewhere, you'll have a feel for what this is about.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dynamicmonk" <gilbert@i...> wrote:
> Thanks. Sure, makes sense.
>
> So, for the most part, nut compensation and some +/-cents on
certain
> open strings relates to getting the physical properties of the
guitar
> (incl. string tension and action) to intonate closer to an exact
> equal temperament.

right.

> Earlier, someone mentioned "scale stretching." I think in relation
to
> intonating certain notes (strings) +a few cents at the 12th fret.
How
> does this work? I imagine it has to do with staying in good equal
> temperament up and down the neck

stretching actually refers to a version of equal temperament where
the octave is slightly larger than 1200, which can sound better given
the stretched harmonics of plucked strings.

>-- in the sample intonation I showed
> earlier, only the 3rd and 4th strings are intonated this way:
>
> G -02 +01
> D -02 +01
>
> +cents at the 12th fret. The other strings are +00. Why only these
> two strings? I am wondering if it has to do with the difference
> between wound and unwound strings.

yes, wound strings have a greater degree of inharmonicitity, so it
would make sense to stretch their octaves more.

> That is, the (thicker, more
> tensioned) D and G are "compensated" to be in equal temperament
with
> especially the (unwound) B?

the nut compensation can only acheive so much in the way of
correction. these additional offsets may have to do with taming
inharmonicity by stretching the lower octaves, or they may simply
allow one to approximate equal temperament even more closely over the
whole neck than the nut compensation alone would accomplish. i
haven't read the document closely or recently enough to say for sure.