Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Role of quarter tones in Arabic Music

Wrote Paul H. Erlich,

>Kraig Grady wrote,

>>Paul!
>> Do you really think I can't hear the difference much less see the
>>difference?

>Of course you can. I didn't mean to insult your intelligence.
Clearly there
>are dozens of distinct musical cultures within the Arabic world,
and perhaps
>as many schemes for fretted instruments. Although quartertones have
become
>"standard", you Kraig may be lucky enough to have recordings representing
>older, more local traditions. Also, there is the question of what is
>considered "Arabic" -- for example, where do you draw the lines
between the
>Turkish or Armenian worlds and the Arabic world?

Actually if you examine the work of Scott Marcus and Habib Hassan
Touma, there are more similarilties between Turkish and Armenian
tuning to Arabic tuning than differences. The quarter tone was only a
recent theoretical development by Mishaqah c1850. The main
theoretical instrument, the 'ud, oscillates between fretted and
fretless (currently so), but even when fretted, the frets are tied on
in the same manner as the Turkish saz as well its cousin, the Arabic
buzuq. Frankly, I don't know of a single fixed fret instrument used
in Arabic/Turkish performance, with the obvious exception of the
12TET electric guitar used by Mohammed Abdel Wahab c1950s, can anyone
inform me?

The frets are moved according to the Maqam and given the majority of
musicians in the Levant or Maghreb learn from an oral tradition (the
exceptions being Egyptian or Lebanese conservatorium musicians who
perform in the relatively recent Arabic orchestras), it is highly
unlikely you will find a performer playing true (tempered) quarter
tones. The performers natural inclination will be to resolve to
consonant intervals, i.e. the Pythagorean derivations of al'Farabi or
Safi al'Din Urmawi (umm, the names are from memory, apols if their
not quite right).

Of course it is possible to theorise that the performers recorded
have exceptionally adjusted their fretted instruments using a tuner
prior to a recording session, but this again seems highly unlikely.

@PhdThesis{marcus:arab_theory,
author = "Scott L. Marcus",
title = "Arab Music Theory in the Modern Period",
school = "Department of Ethnomusicology, University of
California, Los Angeles",
year = 1989,
note = "856p."
}

@Book{touma:arabs,
author = "Habib Hassan Touma",
title = "The Music of the {A}rabs",
publisher = "Amadeus Press",
year = 1996,
note = "238p",
annote = "ISBN: 0931340888
}

--
Leigh Smith leigh@tomandandy.com (MIME)
tomandandy +1-212-334-0421 (W) +1-212-334-0422 (F)
89 Greene St. New York, NY 10012, USA
http://www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~leigh
Microsoft - What do you want to re-install today?

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Leigh Smith wrote,

>Frankly, I don't know of a single fixed fret instrument used
>in Arabic/Turkish performance, with the obvious exception of the
>12TET electric guitar used by Mohammed Abdel Wahab c1950s, can anyone
>inform me?

Ara's friend has hundreds of CD featuring the Turkish saz and the Armenian
tar, fretted instruments. It is quite clear that it is not a 17-tone
Pythagorean chain that is being used on these instruments.

>The frets are moved according to the Maqam and given the majority of
>musicians in the Levant or Maghreb learn from an oral tradition (the
>exceptions being Egyptian or Lebanese conservatorium musicians who
>perform in the relatively recent Arabic orchestras), it is highly
>unlikely you will find a performer playing true (tempered) quarter
>tones.

Agreed, but:

>The performers natural inclination will be to resolve to
>consonant intervals, i.e. the Pythagorean derivations of al'Farabi or
>Safi al'Din Urmawi (umm, the names are from memory, apols if their
>not quite right).

Please elaborate and tell me which intervals you find to be "consonant"!

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Leigh Smith <leigh@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Paul H. Erlich wrote,

>Leigh Smith wrote,

>>Frankly, I don't know of a single fixed fret instrument used
>>in Arabic/Turkish performance, with the obvious exception of the
>>12TET electric guitar used by Mohammed Abdel Wahab c1950s, can anyone
>>inform me?

> Ara's friend has hundreds of CD featuring the Turkish saz and the
Armenian
> tar, fretted instruments. It is quite clear that it is not a 17-tone
> Pythagorean chain that is being used on these instruments.

Ok, I play saz and that is fretted with nylon or gut frets that are
tied on around the neck and movable. Every saz of every variety I
have ever seen has movable frets, ditto the Arabic buzuq. The Greek
bouzouki has hammered in frets though (12TET), but they are quite
different in timbre and playing technique and not easily confused.

Likewise the dutar and tar have moveable frets, for example, check
the instrument retailer:

http://www.mhs.mendocino.k12.ca.us/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/MiddleEasternStrings

According to Touma's book, the tetrachord was divided into 10
intervals, although some of these are quite high denominators, the
3/4 tone is typically around 180 cents and neutral third at 384 cents
(this is from memory, I'll post the exact divisions tomorrow). With
the division of the tone, this produces 25 intervals per octave.
Another approach was by the addition of pythagorean commas and limmas
to produce slightly different derivation of the tetrachord but that
still resulted in 25 _theoretical_ intervals. However, only 7 tones
per octave are used in a given performed maqam.

>>The performers natural inclination will be to resolve to
>>consonant intervals, i.e. the Pythagorean derivations of al'Farabi or
>>Safi al'Din Urmawi (umm, the names are from memory, apols if their
>>not quite right).
>
>Please elaborate and tell me which intervals you find to be "consonant"!

Yes I struggled for a term and should have known better than use the
C word posting to the TD!
Instruments like the 'ud and saz include struck drone strings that
lead the performer to move the frets to minimize beating against the
drones. This is also the tendency with the fretless 'ud with regard
to glissando.

The other issue is that both the saz and 'ud have courses of unison
tuned dual strings. These are tuned with friction tuners (which never
hold!) so the listener is hearing a chorused sound. When that issue
is combined with rapid passages on the 'ud where the fingering won't
be perfect; or with two drone courses (A and D) on the saz which will
mask the single line behind the chorused dyad drone, the accuracy of
the scale is becoming a moot point in the context of *performance*.

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Leigh Smith wrote,

>According to Touma's book, the tetrachord was divided into 10
>intervals, although some of these are quite high denominators, the
>3/4 tone is typically around 180 cents and neutral third at 384 cents

Yes, these are the extended Pythagorean values, but I'm afraid they don't
agree with the Arabic music I've heard. 384 cents is virtually a just 5:4
(386 cents), and 180 cents is virtually a just 10:9 (182 cents) while the
ubiquitous Arabic neutral seconds and thirds are clearly farther from any
12-equal values than this.

>(this is from memory, I'll post the exact divisions tomorrow).

I'd be happy to comment more when you do.

>Instruments like the 'ud and saz include struck drone strings that
>lead the performer to move the frets to minimize beating against the
>drones.

A 384-cent interval would surely do this, but that is not the reality. In
Indian music it often is, and in medieval Arabic music this was probably
important (and that fact must be what is informing Touma), but not in modern
Arabic music. The characteristic Arabic scale flavor comes from dividing a
minor third into two roughly equal 3/4-tones, and 180-cent intervals just
won't do that. Very commonly those 3/4-tones occur right above the root,
below the octave, above the fifth, and below the fourth. In none of these
cases can we say that one is minimizing beating against the drone, unless
one is very generous in assigning importance to upper partials, in which
case the ratios could be 12/11, 11/9, and their inversions.

>When that issue
>is combined with rapid passages on the 'ud where the fingering won't
>be perfect; or with two drone courses (A and D) on the saz which will
>mask the single line behind the chorused dyad drone, the accuracy of
>the scale is becoming a moot point in the context of *performance*.

Unless it's a good performance (of which I've heard plenty).

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
> A 384-cent interval would surely do this, but that is not the reality

I am afraid that it is the reality. When want a major third, this is what they
use, not anything close to a sharp third- 81:64 0r 12ET

> In
> Indian music it often is, and in medieval Arabic music this was probably
> important (and that fact must be what is informing Touma), but not in modern
> Arabic music.

What on earth would make a whole people, after using a tuning for centuries,
forget what it sounds like. Also looking at there neighbors on both sides
Eastern europe and india both using non ET tunings where could this ET come
from. And why? Just for a neutral third?

> The characteristic Arabic scale flavor comes from dividing a
> minor third into two roughly equal 3/4-tones, and 180-cent intervals just
> won't do that.

there are many explanation of the the neutral third than placing the entire
scale into 24 ET.
Not only is the 10-11-12 series quite well known and possible but 12-13-14 is
also quite well known. The subharmonic versions are easily produced by the mere
placing of the finger perfectly in the middle of the minor third.

> Very commonly those 3/4-tones occur right above the root,
> below the octave, above the fifth, and below the fourth. In none of these
> cases can we say that one is minimizing beating against the drone, unless
> one is very generous in assigning importance to upper partials, in which
> case the ratios could be 12/11, 11/9, and their inversions.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗gbreed@xxx.xxxxxxxxx.xx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)

In-Reply-To: <937040104.8847@onelist.com>
A CD I got with Wire magazine (April last year) features a track by one
Nassim Maalouf using a quartertone trumpet. It's one of the most
impressively microtonal melodies I've heard, in that it uses those strange
intervals to produce a strange sound. Although, for all I know, it may be
a traditional Arabic piece and not supposed to sound strange at all.
Anyway, I mention this because examples of good Arabic music with real
quartertones seem to be thin on the ground.

I'll quote the full notes from the magazine so you know as much about him
as I do:

"NASSIM MAALOUF
"'Tarab (Rast)' (from the Club Du Disque Arabe LP _The Secret Life Of
Arabia_

"When Lebanon-born Nassim Maalouf stuck a fourth valve on the conventional
trumpet which he'd been studying at the Paris Conservatoire, he found a
way of restoring the rich microtonal harmonics to an Arabic music
tradition lost when the French imported Western instruments during the
19th century. 'Both Arab music and jazz develop improvisations,' he says
, 'but there is a major difference between them... Lovers of jazz dance,
sing, talk, drink or eat as they listen to it, which doesn't seem to
bother the musicians. For Oriental improvisation, silence and utter calm
are necessary in order to get the right atmosphere and let the musicians
be guided by their intuitive inspiration to the famous, euphonic
'Al-Tarab''
"Club Du Disque is distributed by Harmonia Mundi"

A fourth valve on a trumpet implies a quartertone mindset, maybe even
24-equal. I would be moderately interested if anybody knows anything else
about him. Not overwhelmingly so, as I haven't even bothered to check if
that CD has more of his tracks on it.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Graham!
I am sure that this is probably similar to Don Ellis's Quarter tone
trumpet but as I remember the Fokker gang Had 2 31-tone 4 valve trumpets
until they were stolen! So one could do other things with 4 valves. In fact I
was in the process of putting up a chart showing how my tuning CENTAUR can
be played on a three valve trumpet. coming soon!

Graham Breed wrote:

>
>
> A fourth valve on a trumpet implies a quartertone mindset, maybe even
> 24-equal. I would be moderately interested if anybody knows anything else
> about him. Not overwhelmingly so, as I haven't even bothered to check if
> that CD has more of his tracks on it.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

I wrote,

>> A 384-cent interval would surely do this, but that is not the reality

Kraig Grady wrote,

>I am afraid that it is the reality. When want a major third, this is what
they
>use, not anything close to a sharp third- 81:64 0r 12ET

I was just saying that 384 cents is not the neutral third.

>What on earth would make a whole people, after using a tuning for
centuries,
>forget what it sounds like.

Have you seen meantone around the West lately?

>Also looking at there neighbors on both sides
>Eastern europe and india both using non ET tunings where could this ET come
>from.

It's not an ET, although several can work to play it. The "Arabic diatonic"
is a scale with pattern L s s L L s s.

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

As long as I'm reposting, this one seems relevant:

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:13:01 -0500
From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 22 guitar, tuning, MOS

Message text written by INTERNET:tuning@onelist.com
>Where. I'll believe it when I see it. (I'm sure your right!) Then again
>what is played on it. The traditional repertoire wouldn't work. I have
>never found a recording using this scale.

>-- Kraig Grady

Just go to Damascus, Beirut or Cairo and buy a tambour.

While Turkish frettings have remained stubbornly non-24tet (despite the
introduction of off-the-boat synthesizers and bass guitars to the Arabesque
ensemble) with 14 to 53 frets in various pythagorean schemes, the
long-necked lutes in much of the Arab world, especially those associated
with film music and other urban entertainment musics, are almost inevitably
in 24tet. While musicians playing ney, ud, and other instruments without
fixed pitch definitely prefer non-tempered tuning, the 24tet versions of
maqam are accepted in practice. 24tet is not here a western import, but
comes from a local theoretical tradition that was especially strong in the
19th century.

I have also seen 24tet Bazoukis in Greece. Not frequently, but it is (or
was, 12 years ago) possible to go into a shop in Athens and buy one off the
rack. (And if you were lucky the neck would keep from warping for a week or
two...)

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Kraig Grady wrote,

>>What on earth would make a whole people, after using a tuning for
centuries,
>>forget what it sounds like.

I wrote,

>Have you seen meantone around the West lately?

Daniel Wolf wrote,

>Sure. Every decent harpsichordist can tune it. And it exists elsewhere,
too.
>At random: Mitsuko Uchida's performances of the Mozart Piano Sonatas,
>handhorn players, older Irish concertina's, many tracker organs, Ligeti's
>_Passacaglia Ungharese_, several works by Douglas Leedy.

Thank you Daniel. I would still say that the vast majority of Western music
lovers and musicians have "forgotten" what meantone sounds like, although it
was standard for centuries. Likewise, Turkish and Hindu tuning systems
provide reminders of what medieval Arabic intervals and scales may have
sounded like (in the extended Pythagorean conception of Safi ad-Din, 13th
century), but Arabic culture has known neutral seconds and thirds since
Zalzal (c. 700) and went his way rather than Safi ad-Din's in establishing a
distinct cultural voice.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

I respond the way I did before that this is influenced by the west, these are
all Mediterranean countries. Film and Pop music is not representative of the
culture as a whole but an "international" style. Under this logic, all Africa
is 12 ET because of its use of western guitars. ON the other Hand, Hugh Tracy
who spent years in africa, stated that that none of the african scales he
heard were anything like the west. Ask the musicians what their scale is!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
>
> >-- Kraig Grady
>
> Just go to Damascus, Beirut or Cairo and buy a tambour.
>
> While Turkish frettings have remained stubbornly non-24tet (despite the
> introduction of off-the-boat synthesizers and bass guitars to the Arabesque
> ensemble) with 14 to 53 frets in various pythagorean schemes, the
> long-necked lutes in much of the Arab world, especially those associated
> with film music and other urban entertainment musics, are almost inevitably
> in 24tet. While musicians playing ney, ud, and other instruments without
> fixed pitch definitely prefer non-tempered tuning, the 24tet versions of
> maqam are accepted in practice.

Not by the leading musicians, from the liner notes I have read.

>
>
> I have also seen 24tet Bazoukis in Greece. Not frequently, but it is (or
> was, 12 years ago) possible to go into a shop in Athens and buy one off the
> rack. (And if you were lucky the neck would keep from warping for a week or
> two...)

toy instruments no doubt!

>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Kraig Grady wrote,

>I respond the way I did before that this is influenced by the west, these
are
>all Mediterranean countries.

Maybe you didn't see the responses to your responses, which were:

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:57:31 -0500
From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 22 guitar, tuning, MOS

Message text written by INTERNET:tuning@onelist.com
>It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
place adjacent to 12ET countries. I<

Kraig Grady:

I think your geography is a bit skewed. It is only in Turkey -- the major
Islamicate country closest culturally to Europe -- where non-tempered
tunings have maintained their monopoly in both classical, folk, and
arabesque repertoires.

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:20:01 -0500
From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
Subject: Re: 22 guitar, tuning, MOS

>
>I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
>-- Kraig Grady<

Iraq and the Gulf states...

Look, Kraig, I won't belabor the point, but 24tet exists and is widely used
in these places, the impulse came from their own theoretical traditions
(which are obsessed with the issue of finding the right equal division) and
it exists side-by-side with non-equal systems.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

I could quote my response again but this is redundant to say the least and
pointless!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >I respond the way I did before that this is influenced by the west, these
> are
> >all Mediterranean countries.
>
> Maybe you didn't see the responses to your responses, which were:
>
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:57:31 -0500
> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
> Subject: Re: 22 guitar, tuning, MOS
>
> Message text written by INTERNET:tuning@onelist.com
> >It seems the only places that Wolf saw these instruments was
> place adjacent to 12ET countries. I<
>
> Kraig Grady:
>
> I think your geography is a bit skewed. It is only in Turkey -- the major
> Islamicate country closest culturally to Europe -- where non-tempered
> tunings have maintained their monopoly in both classical, folk, and
> arabesque repertoires.
>
> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:20:01 -0500
> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
> Subject: Re: 22 guitar, tuning, MOS
>
> >
> >I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
> >-- Kraig Grady<
>
> Iraq and the Gulf states...
>
> Look, Kraig, I won't belabor the point, but 24tet exists and is widely used
> in these places, the impulse came from their own theoretical traditions
> (which are obsessed with the issue of finding the right equal division) and
> it exists side-by-side with non-equal systems.
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗John F. Sprague <JSprague@xxxx.xxxxx.xx.xxx>

For a discussion of Arabic music, I suggest you consult "The Rise of Music in the Ancient World East and West" by Curt Sachs, published by W. W. Norton & Company, Inc., 1943.

>>> Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com> 09/13 9:23 PM >>>
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

I could quote my response again but this is redundant to say the least and
pointless!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

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🔗Leigh Smith <leigh@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

(I believe) From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx

> >I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
> >-- Kraig Grady<
>
> Iraq and the Gulf states...
>
> Look, Kraig, I won't belabor the point, but 24tet exists and is
widely used
> in these places, the impulse came from their own theoretical traditions
> (which are obsessed with the issue of finding the right equal
division) and
> it exists side-by-side with non-equal systems.

Rereading Touma, "...Mishaqah (1800-1889) presented the division of
the octave into twenty-four equal parts. He illustrated the spacing
of the twenty-four frets on the neck of the lute [sic] with the aid
of a geometric drawing...Passionate discussions and arguments among
musicians and music scholars [nothing's changed with cyberspace :-)]
about the following two questions supplied the impetus for new
calculations: (1) how far apart should the frets on the neck of the
long-necked lute be...(2) are the intervals of the lower octave
equivalent to those of the higher octave...The fact that such
questions were raised indicates that musicians at this time were
already familiar with the idea of twenty-four steps to the octave,
even if only in relation to their practical experiences."

The interesting question is the specification of the "long-necked
lute" i.e *not* the 'ud. The book was originally in French, but I
doubt this instrument is there named by its Arabic term, but I would
presume it is the buzuq. This is currently also a tied fret
instrument and near identical (save slight body shape differences) to
the Turkish saz, also tied fret.

Certainly the 'ud is performed fretless in Iraq (my teacher in Aus
was Iraqi). So we are left with the conclusion that either both fixed
fret and tied fret versions of the buzuq are currently in use, or
there is a possible geometric tuning method of adjusting buzuq tied
frets in addition to moving them by ear, or there is another type of
"long-necked lute" for me to get my grubby mitts on...

Fascinating stuff. Certainly I didn't realise true 24TET instruments
were used outside of western art contexts, according to Daniel Wolf.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Leigh!
Just got the touma book in the mail today!Thanks for the tip! i
especially like the quote
"To temper the scale by dividing the octive into 24 equal parts would be to
surrender one of the most characteristic elements of this musical culture."
page 24

Leigh Smith wrote:

> From: Leigh Smith <leigh@tomandandy.com>
>
> (I believe) From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx
>
> > >I believe the same is true of Iran. What east of Jordan has 24ET?
> > >-- Kraig Grady<
> >
> > Iraq and the Gulf states...
> >
> > Look, Kraig, I won't belabor the point, but 24tet exists and is
> widely used
> > in these places, the impulse came from their own theoretical traditions
> > (which are obsessed with the issue of finding the right equal
> division) and
> > it exists side-by-side with non-equal systems.
>
> Rereading Touma, "...Mishaqah (1800-1889) presented the division of
> the octave into twenty-four equal parts. He illustrated the spacing
> of the twenty-four frets on the neck of the lute [sic] with the aid
> of a geometric drawing...Passionate discussions and arguments among
> musicians and music scholars [nothing's changed with cyberspace :-)]
> about the following two questions supplied the impetus for new
> calculations: (1) how far apart should the frets on the neck of the
> long-necked lute be...(2) are the intervals of the lower octave
> equivalent to those of the higher octave...The fact that such
> questions were raised indicates that musicians at this time were
> already familiar with the idea of twenty-four steps to the octave,
> even if only in relation to their practical experiences."
>
> The interesting question is the specification of the "long-necked
> lute" i.e *not* the 'ud. The book was originally in French, but I
> doubt this instrument is there named by its Arabic term, but I would
> presume it is the buzuq. This is currently also a tied fret
> instrument and near identical (save slight body shape differences) to
> the Turkish saz, also tied fret.
>
> Certainly the 'ud is performed fretless in Iraq (my teacher in Aus
> was Iraqi). So we are left with the conclusion that either both fixed
> fret and tied fret versions of the buzuq are currently in use, or
> there is a possible geometric tuning method of adjusting buzuq tied
> frets in addition to moving them by ear, or there is another type of
> "long-necked lute" for me to get my grubby mitts on...
>
> Fascinating stuff. Certainly I didn't realise true 24TET instruments
> were used outside of western art contexts, according to Daniel Wolf.
>
> --
> Leigh Smith leigh@tomandandy.com (MIME)
> tomandandy +1-212-334-0421 (W) +1-212-334-0422 (F)
> 89 Greene St. New York, NY 10012, USA
> http://www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~leigh
> Microsoft - What do you want to re-install today?
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

I suggest we all take a close look at Mohammed Gharib's web site,
http://www.galcit.caltech.edu/~moh/music/. He plays the Setar, an Iranian
version of the instruments we've been discussing, and describes the tying-on
of the frets as follows:

>Now the frets:

>C Dk D Eb Ek E F G
>|-----------------------------------------------------------....
> | | | | |
>|-----------------------------------------------------------....
>^ ^
>| |
>| |
>knot bridge

>Dk or pD = D koron =D-60 cents
>Eb = E flat = D+85,90 cents.

He describes the tuning of a very common mode and another one as follows
(from program notes for a concert):

>Segah is one of the most popular Dastgahs in the entire Middle East and the
Mediterranean, >probably second to Shoor.

>Most compositions in Segah seem to express moods that are less serious,
fun, intoxicated, >flirtatious, or complaining. However, Segah, as good
music should be, is often non-anthropomorphic >(i.e., expresses feelings
beyond known human emotions). In short, Segah is usually not very >serious.

>Segah is played in a very non-western scale. Here is Segah from C:

>C D E-60cents F G A-60cents Bb C

>where one chromatic "Pardeh" or a whole-tone is equal to 200 cents.
Dara'amad is an improvised >free melody played in the C---G interval
concentrating mostly on E (E koron = E-60cents). Zabol is >also improvised
between E and A with emphasis on G.

>Dara'amad and Zabol are two Gushehs (melodic "corners") from the many
Gushes that exist in the >vocal or the instrumental repertoire of Segah,
Hence, we get the word Dastgah (collection of >melodies).

>At the peak of Segah, with almost zero time for transition, Segah
transforms into an entirely >different scale: Mokhalif-e Segah (lit.
"Segah's Opponent" or Anti-Segah).

>Here's the scale of Mokhalif from C:

>C D Eb F G A-60cents B-60cents C

>which is closer to the minor scale. Not only is this transition not
annoying to the ear, it is breath->taking. Listen for this transition in #2
and #7. Mokhalif resembles a monster that comes out of the
>innocent-sounding Segah. It is serious, it is protesting, and without a
doubt beautiful and >astounding.

Clearly one is not dealing with 180-cent 3/4-tones, whatever Touma or
Safi-al-Din may say.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Paul !
I don't hear a neutral tone from a 180 cent interval either. Toumi suggest
the 27/22 for one! From what I have learn from practitioners of such thing is
that each local area has a different slant on this interval that another player
can recognize as coming from that area. Such things as the extent of the pitch
bend fall into the same regional distinction I have been told.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
>
> Clearly one is not dealing with 180-cent 3/4-tones, whatever Touma or
> Safi-al-Din may say.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

Kraig wrote,

>Paul !
> I don't hear a neutral tone from a 180 cent interval either. Toumi suggest
>the 27/22 for one!

Sorry, I was going by Leigh Smith's account of what Touma suggested, namely
180 cents for the neutral second and 384 cents for the neutral third.
Those intervals had relevance in Safi-al-Din's time but don't today.

Daniel: I pointed out Gharib's site since the discussion between you and Kraig
did extend to Iran. Also, I never claimed that all Arabic music was in 24-tET, just
that 24-tET approximates the scales of most of the region better than the
17-tone Pythagorean chain of medieval Arabic theory. 17-tET, 31-tET, or
countless non-ET tunings would also do a better job. Gharib suggests 43-tET for
getting a handle on the Persian modes.

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Daniel Wolf wrote,

>Let me emphasize that the use of 24tet in popular musics in Arabic speaking

>countries is the direct result of a local theoretical innovation in the
19th
>century, at a time when quartertones were NOT a subject of discussion in
the
>west. Lines of influence in musical practice lead in surprising ways and
in
>making conjectures about music history one ought to be very careful to
avoid
>the kinds of errors often encountered in the early days of ethnomusicology,

>particularly those influenced by the _Kulturkreis_ theory (e.g. v.
>Hornbostel, Sachs, Schneider). Even today, I would venture that western
music
>plays a role of limited influence in the islamicate world when compared
with
>the role played by Indian film music.

These kinds of errors continue to be made all the time. For example, Jeff
Smith's article at

http://www.corporeal.com/hprvrb_2.html

claims:

>many non-Western cultures -- Japanese, Indonesian, African, Balinese, as
well as native American >Indian -- base their music on [just intonation]

It seems that those who decry the imperialist Western ET manifesto are
quickest to impose their own tuning ideas on other cultures with no
foundation in fact.

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

Paul!
I would say that none of the below cultures are based on JI. In fact they
go out of there way to avoid ET and JI alike. Some luck has been accomplished
along the line of difference tones.
With American Indian music the styles are too varied to really tell. There are
some tribes where the women would hold high drones at which the men would start
in unison and work their way down. Subharmonic scales work well with such
practices. Outside of this, the vibrato is too wide to really speak of any real
intonation. The Japanese have been using 12ET tuned to a 440 bell for quite a
few centuries, when not to pythagorean. Gagaku on the other hand appears to
have Parallel tunings going on simultaneously

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
> >many non-Western cultures -- Japanese, Indonesian, African, Balinese, as
> well as native American >Indian -- base their music on [just intonation]
>
> It seems that those who decry the imperialist Western ET manifesto are
> quickest to impose their own tuning ideas on other cultures with no
> foundation in fact.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

🔗Jonathan M. Szanto <jszanto@adnc.com>

From Paul H. Erlich:

>These kinds of errors continue to be made all the time. For example, Jeff
>Smith's article at http://www.corporeal.com/hprvrb_2.html claims:
>
>>many non-Western cultures -- Japanese, Indonesian, African, Balinese,
>>as well as native American Indian -- base their music on [just intonation]
>
>It seems that those who decry the imperialist Western ET manifesto are
>quickest to impose their own tuning ideas on other cultures with no
>foundation in fact.

The last statement, Paul, is a classic. The article, written almost two
decades ago, is by a local San Diego author who is not, in any way, shape,
or form, an expert in music theory or tuning issues. The entire thrust of
the article was a portrait of Partch cast *especially* in light of his
(then) relatively recent passing.

Was the statement in error? Yes, and the author would probably be the first
to admit as much. Did it even remotely conform to your chip-on-the-shoulder
diatribe. Not in the least. When I 'publish' pieces on the Meadows I have a
clear intent: to inform about matters relating to Partch, and I take into
account the wide variety of writers that may have something of interest to
say, in spite of the fact that every corner might not conform to rigorously
scholastic standards. In this respect, these type of articles I see no need
to issue corrections or disclaimers. It is interesting that the article you
mention is virtually the *first* piece I put online, three years ago. To
date, yours is the first complaint.

"imperialist Western ET manifesto" -- look, if this is a joke, I apologize
for not catching your tone, but if it isn't I'll just humbly submit that
you aren't fostering any kind of intelligent discussion about the matter. I
can think of a dozen more positive ways to bring up a point like this;
maybe with reflection, in the future, you will too.

Best, all...
Jon
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Jonathan M. Szanto : Corporeal Meadows - Harry Partch, online.
jszanto@adnc.com : http://www.corporeal.com/
`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`

🔗Joe Monzo <monz@xxxx.xxxx>

I haven't had the time to follow this thread as closely
as I'd like to and should, but if this is any help to those
struggling with it who have been, here's a webpage I made
about 6 months ago on historical Arab lute frettings:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm

On viewing this page myself right now, I see that it's
still missing some important stuff I had intended to include,
namely, ratios (Doh!) and lattice diagrams. If anyone else
cares to supply them here, I can snip them and paste into
the webpage. (Thanks in advance for expanding all of our
collective knowledges of an important body of tuning evidence.)
The references were, if I recall, mainly Partch's _Genesis_
and Ellis in Helmholtz's _On the Sensations of Tone_.
(I know, I'm being really lazy tonight... I'm exhausted
after a road trip to Montreal; what a fantastic weekend...
I digress... ... send the page numbers along too...)

All three are rational systems, that is, no intervals are
precisely quarter-tones. The ancient fretting was an extended
Pythagorean (3-Limit) system. Zalzal added ratios containing
11 as a factor, and Mahmoud and Abdulqadir replaced those with
a further extension of the Pythagorean system, including enough
notes to emulate a compact 5-limit system, similar to what I
describe about Indian tuning here:
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/indian/indian.htm
(I know, all of this should be on the webpage... the Indian
page also needs to be much more comprehensive...)

As always, I welcome criticism or positive feedback,
and if anything is definitely wrong, *please* submit an
informative correction - graphics are encouraged; I'll add
them to my page. I'd love to include more examples to
really flesh out the history of this and other related
ethnic/cultural frettings, especially African ones. I'd
particularly be delighted to discover connections between
West-African frettings and how they may have influenced the
music of American, Caribbean, and Brazilian slaves.

(Hmmm... a polymicrotonal opera called 'Musical Roots',
based on Robert Johnson instead of Alex Haley?...
Anyone want to collaborate?...)

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo Philadelphia monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
--------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________
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🔗Leigh Smith <leigh@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM in TD321.1 wrote

> Sorry, I was going by Leigh Smith's account of what Touma
suggested, namely
> 180 cents for the neutral second and 384 cents for the neutral third.
> Those intervals had relevance in Safi-al-Din's time but don't today.

That was probably my fault of explanation. Touma is a little unclear
of current practice, but certainly described those cent values I
gave (from memory) in terms of early theory of Safi-ad-Din al-Urmawi
stacking pythagorean comma and limmas to compose the tetrachord thus:

ratio rel cents cum cents
1/1 0 0
253/243 90 (limma) 90
65536/59049 90 180
9/8 24 (py comma) 204
32/22 90 294
8192/6561 90 384
81/64 24 408
4/3 90 498

(Touma p21)

Touma describes "the modern rast row" as
1/1 0 0
9/8 204 204
27/22 151 355
4/3 143 498
3/2 204 702
18/11 151 853
19/9 143 996
2/1 204 1200

> Also, I never claimed that all Arabic music was in 24-tET, just
> that 24-tET approximates the scales of most of the region better
than the
> 17-tone Pythagorean chain of medieval Arabic theory. 17-tET, 31-tET, or
> countless non-ET tunings would also do a better job. Gharib
suggests 43-tET for
> getting a handle on the Persian modes.

Paul, this raises an interesting assumption - are you proposing that
musical practice has remained fixed and that increasingly better
theories (earlier 17tone Pythagorean chain, now 24-ET) have been
developed to better approximate this activity? Are you proposing that
the practice exists independent of the theoretical development? This
would argue against the reason for the early Arabic theory books to
have been written in the first place - for pedagogy.

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

I wrote,

>> Sorry, I was going by Leigh Smith's account of what Touma
suggested, namely
>> 180 cents for the neutral second and 384 cents for the neutral third.
>> Those intervals had relevance in Safi-al-Din's time but don't today.

Leigh Smith wrote,

>Paul, this raises an interesting assumption - are you proposing that
>musical practice has remained fixed and that increasingly better
>theories (earlier 17tone Pythagorean chain, now 24-ET) have been
>developed to better approximate this activity?

My statement above clearly indicates that I am _not_ proposing any such
thing (though it's been proposed -- see the discussions on Gharib's web
site).

>Touma describes "the modern rast row" as
>1/1 0 0
>9/8 204 204
>27/22 151 355
>4/3 143 498
>3/2 204 702
>18/11 151 853
>19/9 143 996
>2/1 204 1200

19/9 should be 16/9.

This is so ridiculously close to 24-tET, there is absolutely no point in
arguing whether these ratios or 24-tET is the correct representation. At the
rate at which these notes go by in Arabic music, any distinction between the
two representations would be swamped by random errors. Many theorists over
the years have been fond of slapping ratios and/or ETs on ethnic scales,
while I would argue that in this case, the true essense of the music is only
peripherally related to either (ratios in that 4:3 and 3:2 would tend to be
well approximated for psychoacoustical reasons, and ETs in that sets of
similar intervals add to melodic intelligibility).