Q1: What is our aim?

Hello,

I've been following the list for a long time. That's why I guess some
answers; but I want to know the ideas of different members about
these topics.

I will pose my questions one by one in order to think about the
answers as soon as I get them.

First question:

You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do you
have other intentions?

Thanks in advance,

M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu
www.musiki.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "musiki_2" <mkemal@p...> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been following the list for a long time. That's why I guess
some
> answers; but I want to know the ideas of different members about
> these topics.
>
> I will pose my questions one by one in order to think about the
> answers as soon as I get them.
>
> First question:
>
> You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
> intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do
you
> have other intentions?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu
> www.musiki.org

hello!

for certain musical purposes, there may indeed be an attempt to find
the "most correct sound system", in which the pitches and intervals
best reflect the artistic intent of the composer and the sound
dynamics of his or her tonal language. many of my posts have been
along this angle, particularly with respect to western common-
practice repertoire, but also others.

however, the pitch continuum can be divided in so many different
ways, and some quite disparate ways are already found on various
parts of our planet, so the expansion of creative possibility in the
musical arts is also a prime intention of mine. given a set of
instruments and artistic desiderata (particularly if those involve
harmony or tonality), i enjoy exploring the theoretical possibilities
for systems that would be applicable. even a simple scale has an
overwhelming number of possible intervals, but an instrument must
generally be in tune (or one's mind in tune with a scale) before the
creative act begins. so of all aspects of musical creation, tuning
tends to be among the most premeditatedly worked out, right up next
to the design of instruments and even notation systems. of course,
there's no reason one can't create a tuning or scale completely
intuitively -- it's just that such a process is less amenable to
description and investigation in ascii text than the more
quantitative methods are, and this is an ascii text list . . .

hope that helps you get a sense of where i'm coming from with regard
to my intentions -- not to mention my intention to edify and dispel
misconceptions concerning all the areas, for example acoustical and
historical, that surround musical tuning. and, perhaps most of all,
to have my ideas challenged by as many minds as i can get to consider
them.

regards,
paul

Hello, M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu!

>First question:
>
>You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
>intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do
>you have other intentions?

It certainly isn't my intention, nor one of the most of the active
posters here, to find the 'most correct system'. Rather, interest
seems to revolve around discovering new systems, and classifying
systems both new and historical.

-Carl

I wrote...
>It certainly isn't my intention, nor one of the most of the
>active posters here, to find the 'most correct system'.

I meant to write, "nor, it seems, the intention of most of the
active posters here",

-Carl

tuning - the application of the infinitude of pitch-relationships to the
human activity of music-making.

My Aim - to seek the application of the principles of diatony and pentatony
to equal tempered scales of other than 12 notes, and to seek their
commonality in the relationships inherent between integers.

Mark

Hello!

--- musiki_2 <mkemal@plekom.com.tr> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been following the list for a long time. That's
> why I guess some
> answers; but I want to know the ideas of different
> members about
> these topics.
>
> I will pose my questions one by one in order to
> think about the
> answers as soon as I get them.
>
> First question:
>
> You have detailed and wide investigations about the
> pitches and
> intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound
> system or do you
> have other intentions?

What would be a correct sound system?
Experimenting with tunings and pitches
is my way to start a composition.
Of course, I might have a form or an
idea already in mind for what I want
to compose at the moment.
It all depends on the situation.
But, I compose music like I paint
on canvas. A freedom of colour
and design.
Thanks!
Joel

>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu
> www.musiki.org
>
>
>

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Gould" <mark.gould@a...> wrote:
>
> tuning - the application of the infinitude of pitch-relationships
to the
> human activity of music-making.
>
> My Aim - to seek the application of the principles of diatony and
pentatony
> to equal tempered scales of other than 12 notes, and to seek their
> commonality in the relationships inherent between integers.
>
> Mark

sounds very much like my aim (and work)! one of my basic
philosophical differences with you (i think) and with the academic
community, is that i feel that diatony and pentatony are in no way
connected with the equal tempered scale of 12 notes in the first
place. but i hope we'll keep communicating as much as possible . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "musiki_2" <mkemal@p...> wrote:
> Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do you
> have other intentions?

There is no 'you'; everyone has different goals. As for aim, in the words of a songwriter: "My aim is true."

Cheers,
Jon

Hello M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu,

You wrote:
<<
You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do
you have other intentions?
>>

To me, the idea of a 'correct system' suggests musical fascism,
or at the very least aesthetic provincialism. However, music
theory, composition, instruments, notation, and music education
require a shared language in order to function well together, and
I believe that this shared language is the `system' we should be
considering when we raise the question of `correctness'. In my
view the issue is not about `correctness' or `incorrectness';
rather, it is about freedom. What is needed is not a `correct
system' but a `transparent system' which will provide freedom
from the confining dominance of an `established system'. In the
best of all possible worlds, the common language of theory,
composition, instruments, notation, and education should
encompass all possible tunings in a practical, utilitarian
`system' allowing complete aesthetic freedom for all composers
and performers, educators and students alike.

Regards,
Aaron Hunt

>

Hello Aaron!
I couldn't agree with you more.
This is similar to Poppers thoughts on plato. Any 'perfect' or 'correct' system implies that any deviation from it is 'decay'. in fact, plato was quite concerned with this question about musical tuning. The revival so such ideas as in McClain should be considered what they are. Blueprints to authoritarian musical control. I imagine the athenians were much more senitive to reallising how
anti-democratic Plato/Socrates were. hence the hemlock. It is interesting to note that many if not most of the latter's students became of the worse criminals their city was to see.

>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:57:19 -0000
> From: "pitchcolor" <Pitchcolor@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Q1: What is our aim?
>
> Hello M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu,
>
> You wrote:
> <<
> You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
> intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do
> you have other intentions?
> >>
>
> To me, the idea of a 'correct system' suggests musical fascism,
> or at the very least aesthetic provincialism. However, music
> theory, composition, instruments, notation, and music education
> require a shared language in order to function well together, and
> I believe that this shared language is the `system' we should be
> considering when we raise the question of `correctness'. In my
> view the issue is not about `correctness' or `incorrectness';
> rather, it is about freedom. What is needed is not a `correct
> system' but a `transparent system' which will provide freedom
> from the confining dominance of an `established system'. In the
> best of all possible worlds, the common language of theory,
> composition, instruments, notation, and education should
> encompass all possible tunings in a practical, utilitarian
> `system' allowing complete aesthetic freedom for all composers
> and performers, educators and students alike.
>
> Regards,
> Aaron Hunt

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

thanks kraig, i'm glad to see you didn't side with the "absolutist"
camp on this one.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
>
> Hello Aaron!
> I couldn't agree with you more.
> This is similar to Poppers thoughts on plato. Any 'perfect'
or 'correct' system implies that any deviation from it is 'decay'. in
fact, plato was quite concerned with this question about musical
tuning. The revival so such ideas as in McClain should be considered
what they are. Blueprints to authoritarian musical control. I imagine
the athenians were much more senitive to reallising how
> anti-democratic Plato/Socrates were. hence the hemlock. It is
interesting to note that many if not most of the latter's students
became of the worse criminals their city was to see.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:57:19 -0000
> > From: "pitchcolor" <Pitchcolor@a...>
> > Subject: Re: Q1: What is our aim?
> >
> > Hello M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu,
> >
> > You wrote:
> > <<
> > You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
> > intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do
> > you have other intentions?
> > >>
> >
> > To me, the idea of a 'correct system' suggests musical fascism,
> > or at the very least aesthetic provincialism. However, music
> > theory, composition, instruments, notation, and music education
> > require a shared language in order to function well together, and
> > I believe that this shared language is the `system' we should be
> > considering when we raise the question of `correctness'. In my
> > view the issue is not about `correctness' or `incorrectness';
> > rather, it is about freedom. What is needed is not a `correct
> > system' but a `transparent system' which will provide freedom
> > from the confining dominance of an `established system'. In the
> > best of all possible worlds, the common language of theory,
> > composition, instruments, notation, and education should
> > encompass all possible tunings in a practical, utilitarian
> > `system' allowing complete aesthetic freedom for all composers
> > and performers, educators and students alike.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Aaron Hunt
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

>

Hello Paul!
Well as you know i have been working with recurrent sequences and theyare kind of are different that than your limit based thinking.

The one thing about JI is that it is an open system always capable of being expanded. completely different ways of thinking can be set up to have common tones which can act as a little doors that one has to bend down into to get through and hence opens up a whole new universe.

This how it appears yet i recognize that it doesn't to others and qualities of ET might solicit similar poetic images . Possibly Yasser perceived a tendency that happens over lond period of time : musical systems evolving toward and then away from ever increasing ETs or you can look at toward ever increasing just systems, it all depends where one
wishes to look from.

Also i realize that there is much more possible than JI and ET. Some are variations in concept ( adaptive JI, various meantone systems etc.) yet some are completely new ways of thinking and as valid as these two. I can only assume that others brilliant minds will come up with others and hope to see this happen more before i leave.

>
> From: "Paul Erlich" <perlich@aya.yale.edu>
>
>
> thanks kraig, i'm glad to see you didn't side with the "absolutist"
> camp on this one.
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > >
>
> > Hello Aaron!
> > I couldn't agree with you more.
> > This is similar to Poppers thoughts on plato. Any 'perfect'
> or 'correct' system implies that any deviation from it is 'decay'. in
> fact, plato was quite concerned with this question about musical
> tuning. The revival so such ideas as in McClain should be considered
> what they are. Blueprints to authoritarian musical control. I imagine
> the athenians were much more senitive to reallising how
> > anti-democratic Plato/Socrates were. hence the hemlock. It is
> interesting to note that many if not most of the latter's students
> became of the worse criminals their city was to see.
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:57:19 -0000
> > > From: "pitchcolor" <Pitchcolor@a...>
> > > Subject: Re: Q1: What is our aim?
> > >
> > > Hello M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu,
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > <<
> > > You have detailed and wide investigations about the pitches and
> > > intervals. Do you aim to find the most correct sound system or do
> > > you have other intentions?
> > > >>
> > >
> > > To me, the idea of a 'correct system' suggests musical fascism,
> > > or at the very least aesthetic provincialism. However, music
> > > theory, composition, instruments, notation, and music education
> > > require a shared language in order to function well together, and
> > > I believe that this shared language is the `system' we should be
> > > considering when we raise the question of `correctness'. In my
> > > view the issue is not about `correctness' or `incorrectness';
> > > rather, it is about freedom. What is needed is not a `correct
> > > system' but a `transparent system' which will provide freedom
> > > from the confining dominance of an `established system'. In the
> > > best of all possible worlds, the common language of theory,
> > > composition, instruments, notation, and education should
> > > encompass all possible tunings in a practical, utilitarian
> > > `system' allowing complete aesthetic freedom for all composers
> > > and performers, educators and students alike.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Aaron Hunt
> >
> > -- -Kraig Grady
> > North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> > http://www.anaphoria.com
> > The Wandering Medicine Show
> > KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:41:32 -0000
> From: "Paul Erlich" <perlich@aya.yale.edu>
> Subject: Re: database of unison-vectors
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > hello all,
> >
> >
> > i need a very complete database of ratios which
> > may be potential unison-vectors.
> >
> > i realize that there's a good 5-limit list on my
> > own "equal-temperaments" Dictionary webpage,
>
> http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/eqtemp.htm
>
> it's still in need of revision . . . a slightly more complete and
> correct version of this, which applies better to the graphs on your
> page, is at
>
> /tuning/database?
> method=reportRows&tbl=10&sortBy=5&sortDir=up
>
> (be sure to scroll through the various pages)
>
> ((i know you knew but this is for the benefit of new members
> following along))
>
> by combining a pair of unison vectors from this list, and allowing
> both unison vectors to vanish, you can derive any of a pretty vast
> number of equal temperaments, or well-temperaments if you do the
> tempering unequally . . . the graphs show these equal temperaments at
> the intersections of the lines corresponding to the unison vectors.
>
> 7-limit and higher are of course of great interest too, but the
> graphs would have to be three-dimensional, and would be pretty
> impossible to view without the ability to rotate them around and view
> them from various angles (hint hint) . . .
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:45:55 -0000
> From: "Paul Erlich" <perlich@aya.yale.edu>
> Subject: Re: Errors in Michael and Aaron's recommendations at millersus.com site. - Red Herring?
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@h...> wrote:
>
> > "For a list of cents offset values from 12-et, check out:
> > http://www.millersrus.com/avery/"
> >
> > Useful link provided you don't mind naming and value errors;-)
> >
> > At least 3 of the 12 values listed for the misnamed "3/10 comma
> > Harrison" are WRONG!
>
> which three? nothing looks seriously wrong to me, though the pitch
> named Ab (in all the tunings, apparently) is actually being tuned as
> G#, which may or may not confuse any particular user.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> Also i realize that there is much more possible than JI and ET.
>Some are variations in concept ( adaptive JI, various meantone
>systems etc.) yet some are completely new ways of thinking and as
>valid as these two.

do you think meantones are variations of JI or variations of ET? i
happen to think they are neither, instead lying along what i've
called a "middle path" between them (that also includes myriad other
linear, planar, etc. temperaments), but certainly as "valid" if not
more so. and of course the idea of tempering irregularly, leaving a
region of the tuning just or at least more just, can be applied to
any of these, yielding "characters of the keys". but i'm glad you
mentioned this, because i was going to call you on that tired
dichotomy you appeared to appealing to in the preceding paragraphs.
let it languish in the mediocre music and acoustics textbooks where
it belongs!

Kraig,

Thank you for providing this uncommon-sense:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> The one thing about JI is that it is an open system always capable
of being expanded. completely different ways of thinking can be set up
to have common tones which can act as a little doors that one has to
bend down into to get through and hence opens up a whole new universe.
>
> This how it appears yet i recognize that it doesn't to others and
qualities of ET might solicit similar poetic images . Possibly Yasser
perceived a tendency that happens over lond period of time : musical
systems evolving toward and then away from ever increasing ETs or you
can look at toward ever increasing just systems, it all depends where one
> wishes to look from.
>
> Also i realize that there is much more possible than JI and ET.
Some are variations in concept ( adaptive JI, various meantone
systems etc.) yet some are completely new ways of thinking and as
valid as these two. I can only assume that others brilliant minds will
come up with others and hope to see this happen more before i leave.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
>
> Hello Paul!
> Well as you know i have been working with recurrent sequences
>and theyare kind of are different that than your limit based
>thinking.

these are non-octave-repeating scales, then? what are a few of your
favorite examples so i can tune them up and play around with them?
i've been trying to follow your previous postings on this, i might
have try to look at them again and come back with questions . . . for
now, are there any lattices of the acoustical relationships of any
such scales i can look at?

> The one thing about JI is that it is an open system always capable
>of being expanded.

that *is* a really cool thing about it, and also about all the
temperaments except the (relatively few) closed ones. for example
margo schulter has written about the joys of an extensible chain of
fifths widened a few cents from just, while i've enjoyed exploring
the further reaches of a chain of severely narrowed (677 cent)
fifths . . . besides these "single-chain" and similar "multiple-
chain" tunings, two-dimensional and higher-dimensional examples
abound, for example "starling" and "byzantine" each of which
approximate the 7-limit with *two* (non-closing and incommensurable)
generators, rather than the *one* you'd have in a linear temperament
and the *three* you'd have in JI.

>completely different ways of thinking can be set >up to have common
>tones which can act as a little doors that one has >to bend down
>into to get through and hence opens up a whole new >universe.

> This how it appears yet i recognize that it doesn't to others and
>qualities of ET might solicit similar poetic images .

yes, this is reminiscent of the experience i had composing "glassic"
with an odd 12-tone subset of 22-equal, the "porcupine" section is
medieval/renaissance-like but with a west-/southeast-asian melodic
vibe, while the "septimal" section takes one into a world more
reminiscent of michael harrison. it is at the curious conjunctions
between the two areas where one has to "bend down" melodically, and
where one can find fuller harmonies impossible in either region taken
alone.

anyway, i'm ready for something "kind of different", so show me the
way!