Ramos de Pareja

Hi tuning folks

Ramos de Pareja, an ancient spanish theorist and composer is told having advocated equal temperament. E T ,versatile as it may be ,is not a difficult invention.You arrive at it of necessicity when you tune an instrument like a guitar or viola da gamba because the construction of these instruments requires all of the semitones to have the same value. I wanted to know what Ramos actually had been writing and got hold of his book Musica Practica , published 1482 in Bologna ( Leipzig , Breitkopf & Hartel 1901 ). Not being a latinist I could not really read it, but it showed a monochord with the positions of the notes and a arithmetical description of these positions which I could decipher with some guesswork.

It turned out that his monochord was tuned in pure fifths (3/2) : B flat-F-C-G and D-A-E-B , the intervals B flat-D, F-A, C-E and G-B being pure thirds(5/4). These notes make part of a "tonal grid" which you can draw up, putting fifths in horizontal rows and thirds in vertical rows.(if Ramos had known this, his considerations could have been a little more comprehensible and shorter)

You will notice that Ramos' system contains the scales F, C and G major and D , A and E minor. The chord G minor however is not in tune . I never saw or heard compositions by Ramos but I really doubt whether musicians in his time played or sung according to the rules set forth by him.

Coming to a practical attack of the problem : I should like to produce the sounds and more of that stuff on which I have been theorizing. Is "SCALA" a good choice or has anyone a better advice?

For those who might be interested in Ramos , read: The "Musica practica"of Bartolomeo Ramos de Pareia: A critical translation and commentary. Fose, Luanne Eris, Ph.D. University of North Texas, 1992

Leen van Assendelft, Arnhem, the Netherlands

Hallo Leen,

Scala is certainly a good choice to explore that scale. It's
in the scale archive and you can load it with "load ramis".
The lattice can be played with Analyse->Lattice and then click
the "2D play" button.

Manuel

You probably know, but just in case, that Bartolome was blind and that some
have reported errors in some of the drawings in his book, which he, being
blind could not detect.

I find that for a blind mand in the 15 century, he looked like a pretty
remarkable individual.

Carlos

On Friday 05 September 2003 16:26, Leen van Assendelft wrote:
> Hi tuning folks
>
> Ramos de Pareja, an ancient spanish theorist and composer is told having
> advocated equal temperament. E T ,versatile as it may be ,is not a
> difficult invention.You arrive at it of necessicity when you tune an
> instrument like a guitar or viola da gamba because the construction of
> these instruments requires all of the semitones to have the same value. I
> wanted to know what Ramos actually had been writing and got hold of his
> book Musica Practica , published 1482 in Bologna ( Leipzig , Breitkopf &
> Hartel 1901 ). Not being a latinist I could not really read it, but it
> showed a monochord with the positions of the notes and a arithmetical
> description of these positions which I could decipher with some guesswork.
>
> It turned out that his monochord was tuned in pure fifths (3/2) : B
> flat-F-C-G and D-A-E-B , the intervals B flat-D, F-A, C-E and G-B being
> pure thirds(5/4). These notes make part of a "tonal grid" which you can
> draw up, putting fifths in horizontal rows and thirds in vertical rows.(if
> Ramos had known this, his considerations could have been a little more
> comprehensible and shorter)
>
> You will notice that Ramos' system contains the scales F, C and G major and
> D , A and E minor. The chord G minor however is not in tune . I never saw
> or heard compositions by Ramos but I really doubt whether musicians in his
> time played or sung according to the rules set forth by him.
>
> Coming to a practical attack of the problem : I should like to produce the
> sounds and more of that stuff on which I have been theorizing. Is "SCALA" a
> good choice or has anyone a better advice?
>
> For those who might be interested in Ramos , read: The "Musica practica"of
> Bartolomeo Ramos de Pareia: A critical translation and commentary. Fose,
> Luanne Eris, Ph.D. University of North Texas, 1992
>
> Leen van Assendelft, Arnhem, the Netherlands

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Leen van Assendelft"
<leenvanass@w...> wrote:
> Hi tuning folks
>
> Ramos de Pareja, an ancient spanish theorist and composer is told
>having advocated equal temperament.

highly doubtful, but i heard he advocated meantone temperament, far
more likely. if you haven't heard of meantone temperament, please do
read up on it, it was basically "standard tuning" from c.1480-c.1780,
and wasn't actually referred to with the name "meantone" until later.

> It turned out that his monochord was tuned in pure fifths (3/2) : B
>flat-F-C-G and D-A-E-B , the intervals B flat-D, F-A, C-E and G-B
>being pure thirds(5/4). These notes make part of a "tonal grid"
>which you can draw up, putting fifths in horizontal rows and thirds
>in vertical rows.(if Ramos had known this, his considerations could
>have been a little more comprehensible and shorter)

i've taken this idea a little bit further:

http://sonic-arts.org/td/erlich/ramospblock.htm

> You will notice that Ramos' system contains the scales F, C and G
>major and D , A and E minor. The chord G minor however is not in
>tune . I never saw or heard compositions by Ramos but I really doubt
>whether musicians in his time played or sung according to the rules
>set forth by him.

going further, i believe he actually advocated something like
meantone temperament in practice. let me know what the book says!

> For those who might be interested in Ramos , read: The "Musica
>practica"of Bartolomeo Ramos de Pareia: A critical translation and
>commentary. Fose, Luanne Eris, Ph.D. University of North Texas, 1992
>
> Leen van Assendelft, Arnhem, the Netherlands

hello Leen,

i gave a complete visual account of Ramos's monochord division:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/ramos/ramos.htm

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Leen van Assendelft"
<leenvanass@w...> wrote:
> Hi tuning folks
>
> Ramos de Pareja, an ancient spanish theorist and composer is told
having advocated equal temperament. E T ,versatile as it may be ,is
not a difficult invention.You arrive at it of necessicity when you
tune an instrument like a guitar or viola da gamba because the
construction of these instruments requires all of the semitones to
have the same value. I wanted to know what Ramos actually had been
writing and got hold of his book Musica Practica , published 1482 in
Bologna ( Leipzig , Breitkopf & Hartel 1901 ). Not being a latinist I
could not really read it, but it showed a monochord with the
positions of the notes and a arithmetical description of these
positions which I could decipher with some guesswork.
>
> It turned out that his monochord was tuned in pure fifths (3/2) : B
flat-F-C-G and D-A-E-B , the intervals B flat-D, F-A, C-E and G-B
being pure thirds(5/4). These notes make part of a "tonal grid" which
you can draw up, putting fifths in horizontal rows and thirds in
vertical rows.(if Ramos had known this, his considerations could have
been a little more comprehensible and shorter)
>
> You will notice that Ramos' system contains the scales F, C and G
major and D , A and E minor. The chord G minor however is not in
tune . I never saw or heard compositions by Ramos but I really doubt
whether musicians in his time played or sung according to the rules
set forth by him.
>
> Coming to a practical attack of the problem : I should like to
produce the sounds and more of that stuff on which I have been
theorizing. Is "SCALA" a good choice or has anyone a better advice?
>
> For those who might be interested in Ramos , read: The "Musica
practica"of Bartolomeo Ramos de Pareia: A critical translation and
commentary. Fose, Luanne Eris, Ph.D. University of North Texas, 1992
>
> Leen van Assendelft, Arnhem, the Netherlands