Wolf Intervals in Indian music?

Hello, please tell me about Wolf intervals in Indian music (if they do exist). Is komal Ga komal Dha (Eb-G#) a wolf interval?

Have we so successfully domesticated this howling Wolf, through tempering of the musical scale, that the tempered scale has become universally 'acceptable'? -- or, killed the wolf (because the wolf interval does not exist in the tempered scale)?

Thanking you for your time,
Haresh.

I'm not sure if it's appropriate to talk about wolf intervals in reference to a non-
polyphonic musical culture? If there were robust harmony in the Indian Ragas, then
there would be wolf intervals, but such harmony (and for the most part modulation) is
avoided. Are you attempting to write polyphony in a raga mode? -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> Hello, please tell me about Wolf intervals in Indian music (if they do exist). Is komal
Ga komal Dha (Eb-G#) a wolf interval?
>
> Have we so successfully domesticated this howling Wolf, through tempering of the
musical scale, that the tempered scale has become universally 'acceptable'? -- or,
killed the wolf (because the wolf interval does not exist in the tempered scale)?
>
> Thanking you for your time,
> Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...>
wrote:
> Hello, please tell me about Wolf intervals in Indian music (if they
do exist). Is komal Ga komal Dha (Eb-G#) a wolf interval?

why would it be, haresh? komal Ga is 6/5, and komal Dha is 8/5, so
the interval between them is a pure, consonant 4:3.

but there are most definitely wolves on the santoor recordings i have
heard, and almost as certainly on recordings of hariprasad charasia
and other masters of more flexibly-pitchable instruments. for
example, the unaltered Ga is 5/4, and the unaltered Dha is 27/16,
making for a wolf 27:20 interval between them.

> Have we so successfully domesticated this howling Wolf, through
>tempering of the musical scale, that the tempered scale has become
>universally 'acceptable'? -- or, killed the wolf (because the wolf
>interval does not exist in the tempered scale)?

there is still noticeable adherence to just intonation in
performances of classical indian music, but with the introduction of
the harmonium (most often left in 12-equal), and now with more and
more western-style synthesizers and harmony being used in indian
art/jazz/pop music, one might say wolves may be on their way to
becoming an endangered species.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Weaver" <improvist@u...>
wrote:
> I'm not sure if it's appropriate to talk about wolf intervals in
reference to a non-
> polyphonic musical culture?

the santoor is often played without damping the strings, thus these
wolf intervals can "sound together" even if two notes are never
*struck* simultaneously. this happens with Ga and Dha, for example.

Paul Erlich wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> > wrote:
> >>Hello, please tell me about Wolf intervals in Indian music (if they > > do exist). Is komal Ga komal Dha (Eb-G#) a wolf interval?
> > why would it be, haresh? komal Ga is 6/5, and komal Dha is 8/5, so > the interval between them is a pure, consonant 4:3.
> > but there are most definitely wolves on the santoor recordings i have > heard, and almost as certainly on recordings of hariprasad charasia > and other masters of more flexibly-pitchable instruments. for > example, the unaltered Ga is 5/4, and the unaltered Dha is 27/16, > making for a wolf 27:20 interval between them.

alas, i cannot give a citation there, but only relate what i read a long time ago.
namely a list of the 9/13 sruti intervals in a number of ragas, the usable fourths and fifths. it was some commentary on one of the old music or theater books.
which implies that the devisors of the rags were indeed wolf conscious.

klaus

>
> there is still noticeable adherence to just intonation in
> performances of classical indian music, but with the introduction of
> the harmonium (most often left in 12-equal), and now with more and
> more western-style synthesizers and harmony being used in indian
> art/jazz/pop music, one might say wolves may be on their way to
> becoming an endangered species.

I have an Indian harmonium and it's definitely not 12tet-- I'm not quite sure what
temperament it's using, but it has some very strange intervals. E-flat and E are
unusually close together (E is lowered, perhaps to make it closer to just over C). -
Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Weaver" <improvist@u...>
wrote:
>
> >
> > there is still noticeable adherence to just intonation in
> > performances of classical indian music, but with the introduction
of
> > the harmonium (most often left in 12-equal), and now with more
and
> > more western-style synthesizers and harmony being used in indian
> > art/jazz/pop music, one might say wolves may be on their way to
> > becoming an endangered species.
>
> I have an Indian harmonium and it's definitely not 12tet-- I'm not
quite sure what
> temperament it's using, but it has some very strange intervals.
E-flat and E are
> unusually close together (E is lowered, perhaps to make it closer
to just over C). -
> Justin

if you're very lucky, it's tuned to the modern indian gamut. 6/5 and
5/4 are indeed very close (70 cents) (and some useful temperaments
represent them with pitches less than a quartertone apart, rather
than the familiar 100 cents). can you classify your harmonium's
fifths, for example, as just fifths and wolf fifths?

This harmonium has quite a bit of a vibrato, so it's difficult to get a good bearing on
what is and isn't beating. -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Weaver" <improvist@u...>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > there is still noticeable adherence to just intonation in
> > > performances of classical indian music, but with the introduction
> of
> > > the harmonium (most often left in 12-equal), and now with more
> and
> > > more western-style synthesizers and harmony being used in indian
> > > art/jazz/pop music, one might say wolves may be on their way to
> > > becoming an endangered species.
> >
> > I have an Indian harmonium and it's definitely not 12tet-- I'm not
> quite sure what
> > temperament it's using, but it has some very strange intervals.
> E-flat and E are
> > unusually close together (E is lowered, perhaps to make it closer
> to just over C). -
> > Justin
>
> if you're very lucky, it's tuned to the modern indian gamut. 6/5 and
> 5/4 are indeed very close (70 cents) (and some useful temperaments
> represent them with pitches less than a quartertone apart, rather
> than the familiar 100 cents). can you classify your harmonium's
> fifths, for example, as just fifths and wolf fifths?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Erlich" <perlich@aya.yale.edu>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Wolf Intervals in Indian music?

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...>
> wrote:
> > Hello, please tell me about Wolf intervals in Indian music (if they
> do exist). Is komal Ga komal Dha (Eb-G#) a wolf interval?
>
> why would it be, haresh? komal Ga is 6/5, and komal Dha is 8/5, so
> the interval between them is a pure, consonant 4:3.
>
> but there are most definitely wolves on the santoor recordings i have
> heard, and almost as certainly on recordings of hariprasad charasia
> and other masters of more flexibly-pitchable instruments. for
> example, the unaltered Ga is 5/4, and the unaltered Dha is 27/16,
> making for a wolf 27:20 interval between them.
>
> > Have we so successfully domesticated this howling Wolf, through
> >tempering of the musical scale, that the tempered scale has become
> >universally 'acceptable'? -- or, killed the wolf (because the wolf
> >interval does not exist in the tempered scale)?
>
> there is still noticeable adherence to just intonation in
> performances of classical indian music, but with the introduction of
> the harmonium (most often left in 12-equal), and now with more and
> more western-style synthesizers and harmony being used in indian
> art/jazz/pop music, one might say wolves may be on their way to
> becoming an endangered species.

Where's a wolf in a specific raga?

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db