more on twining

For those of you, like me, who are wondering "How did he do it!!??",
we have this info from Mark Johnson, the engineer for Chrysalid
Requiem...

http://www.panix.com/~mj/reqrec.html

Here's an article about CR based on the above info...

http://www.garyeskow.com/interviews/inter8p1.html

...a Grammy nomination??!! Totally awesome. Everyone go buy
this now...

http://tinyurl.com/ibvv?___Amazon.com_Chrysalid_Requiem

It's been added to my list of essential microtonal recordings...

http://lumma.org

-Carl

Well, this is very interesting from a philosophical standpoint. What Twining has
created is a piece that pitch cueing for live performance-- this isn't a first (for the
first American recording of Boulez's Le Marteau, the soprano was cued on
headphones with a celesta!). I found this quote especially interesting: "All complete
performances of the Requiem so far have been done with the singers wearing
headphones to hear the synth guide tracks." I'm wondering if this piece could be done
with no click tracks and no synth guides for pitch cues. It seems like, no matter how
expert a choir gets at singing this way, there is going to be an inevitable loss of
ensemble feel. Plus, it's hard to get over the feeling that "hey...those guys are
cheating!" -- even when the piece is extremely difficult. It seems weird that anyone
would set out to write a JI piece for live performers with the understanding that live
performers can't really pull it off without help-- this could be a major obstacle to
performances of the piece by other ensembles, but I'm guessing that's not Twining's
goal. To my mind, when JI is applied to live performance, it's supposed to simplify the
ground rules of tuning by appealing to natural law and aural facility. It's one thing to
write a devilish extended JI piece for digital instruments, but quite a different matter
when acoustic players/singers are involved. But who knows, maybe someday all
sngers will have the training to sing the Twining Requiem without cues (some humor
intended)... I do agree that the Twining Requiem is an amazing accomplishment--
and the interdependence of the music on the electronic cueing makes the
experience of the piece very 'postmodern', a term I use in a positive sense. -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> For those of you, like me, who are wondering "How did he do it!!??",
> we have this info from Mark Johnson, the engineer for Chrysalid
> Requiem...
>
> http://www.panix.com/~mj/reqrec.html
>
> Here's an article about CR based on the above info...
>
> http://www.garyeskow.com/interviews/inter8p1.html
>
> ...a Grammy nomination??!! Totally awesome. Everyone go buy
> this now...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ibvv?___Amazon.com_Chrysalid_Requiem
>
> It's been added to my list of essential microtonal recordings...
>
> http://lumma.org
>
> -Carl

>I'm wondering if this piece could be done with no click tracks
>and no synth guides for pitch cues.

Toby feels that with more rehearsal it could.

>It seems like, no matter how expert a choir gets at singing this
>way, there is going to be an inevitable loss of ensemble feel.

Yep.

>Plus, it's hard to get over the feeling that "hey...those guys
>are cheating!" -- even when the piece is extremely difficult.

It is cheating, but it's not just difficult -- you're attempting
to perform in a musical culture that doesn't exist. The higher
harmonics have always been there, but the only polyphonic music
to systematically go beyond 5 so far is Barbershop. To go all
the way out over night without such a supporting musical culture
makes the use of guide material not only forgivable, but smart!

>It seems weird that anyone would set out to write a JI piece
>for live performers with the understanding that live performers
>can't really pull it off without help

You have to walk before you can run!

Another guy who didn't let musical culture stop him was Nancarrow.
Nobody could play his stuff, so he sequestered himself away and
wrote for the computer of the day -- player piano. Nowadays, live
performance of some of his stuff is looking possible.

>this could be a major obstacle to performances of the piece by
>other ensembles,

No, it's a huge help, because now you have the recording! When
jazz was on its way to becoming a musical culture, many of its
greatest contributors trained themselves on recordings!

-Carl

All these points are extremely well-taken and I do hope the musical culture needed to
perform extended JI music well on acoustic instruments emerges in the coming years.

Are there any extant cultures that accept the 7-limit in theory and/or practice? What
about the 11-limit? There's probably a cut-off point where the music becomes
incomprehensible in a folk tradition, especially when the system begins generating
numerous intervals that could potentially compete for the same function (e.g.,
subminor vs. minor third). Contemporary higher-limit JI developments since Partch
represent an important artistic tradition, but not a folk tradition. If the 'people' can't
find the notes intuitively, the tradition will always remain hyperspecialized and won't
infiltrate the general artistic culture.

Of course, by those criteria, it's amazing that 12tet ever emerged, but the piano and
its proto-ilk are to blame (along with other factors, I know). I'd argue that 12tet is
STILL not truly in practical use in Western music, but that's another thread. -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I'm wondering if this piece could be done with no click tracks
> >and no synth guides for pitch cues.
>
> Toby feels that with more rehearsal it could.
>
> >It seems like, no matter how expert a choir gets at singing this
> >way, there is going to be an inevitable loss of ensemble feel.
>
> Yep.
>
> >Plus, it's hard to get over the feeling that "hey...those guys
> >are cheating!" -- even when the piece is extremely difficult.
>
> It is cheating, but it's not just difficult -- you're attempting
> to perform in a musical culture that doesn't exist. The higher
> harmonics have always been there, but the only polyphonic music
> to systematically go beyond 5 so far is Barbershop. To go all
> the way out over night without such a supporting musical culture
> makes the use of guide material not only forgivable, but smart!
>
> >It seems weird that anyone would set out to write a JI piece
> >for live performers with the understanding that live performers
> >can't really pull it off without help
>
> You have to walk before you can run!
>
> Another guy who didn't let musical culture stop him was Nancarrow.
> Nobody could play his stuff, so he sequestered himself away and
> wrote for the computer of the day -- player piano. Nowadays, live
> performance of some of his stuff is looking possible.
>
> >this could be a major obstacle to performances of the piece by
> >other ensembles,
>
> No, it's a huge help, because now you have the recording! When
> jazz was on its way to becoming a musical culture, many of its
> greatest contributors trained themselves on recordings!
>
> -Carl

>Are there any extant cultures that accept the 7-limit in theory
>and/or practice?

Only Barbershop, so far as I know.

>What about the 11-limit?

None that I know of.

>There's probably a cut-off point where the music becomes
>incomprehensible in a folk tradition,

What's a folk tradition?

>especially when the system begins generating numerous intervals
>that could potentially compete for the same function (e.g.,
>subminor vs. minor third).

This assumes the diatonic scale.

>If the 'people' can't find the notes intuitively, the tradition
>will always remain hyperspecialized and won't infiltrate the
>general artistic culture.

That's why recordings help. A microtonal *keyboard instrument*,
or other suitably-powerful polyphonic instrument would be a great
help.

-Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <ekin@lumma.org>

> >What about the 11-limit?
>
> None that I know of.

The Blues, particularly in the Mississippi Delta.

7 limit: Jazz, I've heard it in Pharoah Sanders music.

I've also been told there's 7 limit in some schools of Hindustani classical
music,
but I've never spotted it.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

>> >What about the 11-limit?
>>
>> None that I know of.
>
>The Blues, particularly in the Mississippi Delta.

11-limit? I've got the "complete Robert Johnson" and
some assorted 'roots of the blues' type discs.

I'm sure there are non-b-shop a capella jazz groups
that do 7's...

>7 limit: Jazz, I've heard it in Pharoah Sanders music.

I'll have to check that out.

>I've also been told there's 7 limit in some schools
>of Hindustani classical music, but I've never spotted it.

Me either.

-Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <ekin@lumma.org>

> >> >What about the 11-limit?
> >>
> >> None that I know of.
> >
> >The Blues, particularly in the Mississippi Delta.
>
> 11-limit? I've got the "complete Robert Johnson" and
> some assorted 'roots of the blues' type discs.

It's that neutral third 11/9 of the blues. I found it playing slide guitar
long before I got into the tuning biz. According to "monzo"
Johnson goes as far as 13 limit:
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/rjohnson/drunken.htm

> I'm sure there are non-b-shop a capella jazz groups
> that do 7's...
>
> >7 limit: Jazz, I've heard it in Pharoah Sanders music.
>
> I'll have to check that out.

It's his bass player on one of his CDs, I check it again
this weekend.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

hi Carl, Justin, and Dave,

> From: David Beardsley [mailto:db@biink.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:20 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: more on twining
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Lumma" <ekin@lumma.org>
>
> > >> >What about the 11-limit?
> > >>
> > >> None that I know of.
> > >
> > >The Blues, particularly in the Mississippi Delta.
> >
> > 11-limit? I've got the "complete Robert Johnson" and
> > some assorted 'roots of the blues' type discs.
>
> It's that neutral third 11/9 of the blues. I found it playing
> slide guitar
> long before I got into the tuning biz. According to "monzo"
> Johnson goes as far as 13 limit:
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/rjohnson/drunken.htm

thanks for the citation, Dave! i was just about to
point it out to Justin and Carl when i read your post.

one of these days, i plan to analyze the pitches in
Johnson's vocal in terms of their harmonic identities
as extensions of the ~12edo notes in the guitar part.

i'd also like to point to this one:
/tuning/topicId_2179.html#2179?expand=1

in which i found that several interesting pitch-bends
in the vocal part of a MIDI-file version of an Etta James
tune were essentially "extended reference" 11-limit ratios.
(and one that was a basic 7-limit ratio).

(i consider that post to be one of my finest efforts
in writing tuning theory.)

if you don't know what i mean by "extended reference" ...
http://sonic-arts.org/dict/extref.htm

-monz

As i was taught 7 limit is implied via ornamentation, gamak,meend etc..

David Beardsley <db@biink.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <ekin@lumma.org>

> >What about the 11-limit?
>
> None that I know of.

The Blues, particularly in the Mississippi Delta.

7 limit: Jazz, I've heard it in Pharoah Sanders music.

I've also been told there's 7 limit in some schools of Hindustani classical
music,
but I've never spotted it.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

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