Re: [tuning] Question re: tempering(wasObservations on tempering)

What does one call a quasi-just tempering of non12tET EDOs that has
deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40 cent deviations in 17tET. Is this
a well temperament or irregular temperament or what?

Ferinstanz, I am really inordinately fond of 64-71.5 cent semitones,
140-180 half steps, 423-427 fourths and 590-603 tritones... 17tET seems to cry out
to me for some kind tempering...

---
Hanuman Zhang, the "Yves Klein Bleu Aardvark,"
musical mad scientist (no, I don't wanna take over the world, just the sound
spectrum...)

"What strange risk of hearing can bring sound to music - a hearing whose
obligation awakens a sensibility so new that it is forever a unique, new-born,
anti-death surprise, created now and now and now. .. a hearing whose moment
in time is always daybreak." - Lucia Dlugoszewski

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12 elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master
Masayuki Koga

"There's a rabbinical tradition that the music in heaven will be microtonal"
-annotative interpretation of Schottenstein Tehillim, 92:4, the verse being:
"Upon a ten-stringed * instrument and upon lyre, with singing accompanied by
harp." [* utilizing new tones]

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"

"God utters me like a word containing a partial thought of himself." -Thomas
Merton

LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

...improvisation is about change, about flux rather than stasis. ... you have
to be aware of the fact that improvisation is about a constant change. -
Steve Beresford

improvisation: "a process of liberation, a working around the assumptions
that define our civilization, and the results are open-ended." - John Berndt

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>
> What does one call a quasi-just tempering of non12tET EDOs that
has
> deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40 cent deviations
in 17tET. Is this
> a well temperament or irregular temperament or what?
>
> Ferinstanz, I am really inordinately fond of 64-71.5 cent
semitones,
> 140-180 half steps, 423-427 fourths and 590-603 tritones... 17tET
seems to cry out
> to me for some kind tempering...

there are some 17-tone well-temperaments that george secor and margo
schulter are really excited about . . . scala should have these . . .

In a message dated 2003:06:15 03:48:22 AM, Paul E. quotes moi & writes:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>>
>> What does one call a quasi-just tempering of non12tET EDOs that
>has deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40 cent deviations
>in 17tET. Is this a well temperament or irregular temperament or what?
>>
>> Ferinstanz, I am really inordinately fond of 64-71.5 cent
>semitones, 140-180 half steps, 423-427 fourths and 590-603 tritones... 17tET
>seems to cry out to me for some kind tempering...
>
>there are some 17-tone well-temperaments that george secor and margo
>schulter are really excited about . . . scala should have these . . .

So these larger quasi-just systems fall under the well-tempered, eh 0_o?
I don't have Scala - it won't run on my antique, desk-sized PDA of a Mac :(

---
Hanuman Zhang,
musical mad scientist (no, I don't wanna take over the world, just the sound
spectrum...)

"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of the dream. Wandering by
lone sea breakers, and sitting by desolate streams. World losers and world
forsakers, for whom the pale moon gleams. Yet we are movers and the shakers of
the world forever it seems."
-<A HREF="http://www.quoteland.com/author.asp?AUTHOR_ID=708">Arthur
O'Shaunessey</A>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2003:06:15 03:48:22 AM, Paul E. quotes moi &
writes:
>
> >--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
> >>
> >> What does one call a quasi-just tempering of non12tET EDOs
that
> >has deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40 cent
deviations
> >in 17tET. Is this a well temperament or irregular temperament or
what?
> >>
> >> Ferinstanz, I am really inordinately fond of 64-71.5 cent
> >semitones, 140-180 half steps, 423-427 fourths and 590-603
tritones... 17tET
> >seems to cry out to me for some kind tempering...
> >
> >there are some 17-tone well-temperaments that george secor and
margo
> >schulter are really excited about . . . scala should have
these . . .
>
> So these larger quasi-just systems fall under the well-
tempered, eh 0_o?

why do you say "quasi-just"? do these systems really satisfy this
definition?

http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/quasijust.htm

if so, can you show how?

In a message dated 2003:06:16 01:18:54 PM, Paul E. quotes me & writes:

HZ>>What does one call a quasi-just tempering of non12tET EDOs
>that has deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40 cent
>deviations in 17tET. Is this a well temperament or irregular temperament or
>what?
>
> Ferinstanz, I am really inordinately fond of 64-71.5 cent
>semitones, 140-180 half steps, 423-427 fourths and 590-603
>tritones... 17tET seems to cry out to me for some kind tempering...
>
PE>there are some 17-tone well-temperaments that george secor and
>margo schulter are really excited about . . . scala should have
>these . . .

HZ>> So these larger quasi-just systems fall under the well-
>tempered, eh 0_o?
>
>why do you say "quasi-just"? do these systems really satisfy this
>definition?
>
>http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/quasijust.htm
>
>if so, can you show how?

I am aware of the definition of "quasi-just"... I am asking those who are
more knowledgable than I what >"What does one call a [ . . . ] tempering of
non12tET <>EDOs that [have] deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40
cent
>deviations in 17tET. Is this a well temperament or irregular temperament or
>what?

Now I am _guessing_ an unequal temperament or an irregular temperament
having looked closer at some historical irregular systems (i.e. Agricola's
Monochord, Fabio Colonna #1, Jean-Le Rond D'Alembert circa 1752).
Of course, I am open to correction and other juicy tidbits of microtonal
lore :)
Thanx.

---
Hanuman Zhang, _Gomi no sensei_ [Master of junk]
& Gatherer of Extremely Enlightening Knowledge (or GEEK, for short ;)

"To live is to scrounge, taking what you can in order to survive. So,
since living is scrounging, the result of our efforts is to amass a pile of
rubbish."
- Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi, China, 4th Century BCE

"The most beautiful order is a heap of sweepings piled up at random."
- Heraclitus, Greece, 5th Century BCE

Ars imitatur Naturam in sua operatione.
[Latin > "Art is the imitation of Nature in her manner of operation."]

" jinsei to iu mono wa, kichou na geijyutsu to ieru deshou "
[Japanese > "one can probably say that 'life' is a precious artform"]
in more radical, paracultural terms: "the (R)Evolution of the Everyday"

"There is no total revolution, there is only _perpetual_ Revolution,
real life, like love, dazzling at every moment." - Paul Eluard

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GFA/H/L/MC/MU/SS d--- s: a39 C++ U? P L- E-- W N-- o-- K--- w---
O-- M+ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t-- 5++ X+ R- /R* tv+ b++++ DI--
D-- G e++ h* r y++**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

http://www.geekcode.com/

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2003:06:16 01:18:54 PM, Paul E. quotes me &
writes:
>
> HZ>>What does one call a quasi-just tempering of non12tET EDOs
> >that has deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e. like 20-40 cent
> >deviations in 17tET. Is this a well temperament or irregular
temperament or
> >what?
> >
> > Ferinstanz, I am really inordinately fond of 64-71.5 cent
> >semitones, 140-180 half steps, 423-427 fourths and 590-603
> >tritones... 17tET seems to cry out to me for some kind
tempering...
> >
> PE>there are some 17-tone well-temperaments that george secor and
> >margo schulter are really excited about . . . scala should have
> >these . . .
>
> HZ>> So these larger quasi-just systems fall under the well-
> >tempered, eh 0_o?
> >
> >why do you say "quasi-just"? do these systems really satisfy this
> >definition?
> >
> >http://www.sonic-arts.org/dict/quasijust.htm
> >
> >if so, can you show how?
>
> I am aware of the definition of "quasi-just"... I am asking
those who are
> more knowledgable than I what >"What does one call a [ . . . ]
tempering of
> non12tET <>EDOs that [have] deviations larger than 3-8 cents? i.e.
like 20-40
> cent
> >deviations in 17tET.

i originally thought you meant deviations from the ET, now i think you
mean deviations from just?

> Is this a well temperament or irregular
temperament or
> >what?

all well temperaments other then ET are irregular, aren't they? a well
temperament is meant to function in every key; while this usually is
in reference to a 12-tone key system and 5-limit tuning paradigm, the
concept can certainly be generalized to other schema, as for example
secor's 17-tone tuning.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> all well temperaments other then ET are irregular, aren't they? a
well
> temperament is meant to function in every key; while this usually
is
> in reference to a 12-tone key system and 5-limit tuning paradigm,
the
> concept can certainly be generalized to other schema, as for
example
> secor's 17-tone tuning.

Do you know what that tuning actually is? I don't recall seeing the
details.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> > all well temperaments other then ET are irregular, aren't they? a
> well
> > temperament is meant to function in every key; while this usually
> is
> > in reference to a 12-tone key system and 5-limit tuning paradigm,
> the
> > concept can certainly be generalized to other schema, as for
> example
> > secor's 17-tone tuning.
>
> Do you know what that tuning actually is? I don't recall seeing the
> details.

it's *got* to be in scala. isn't it?

>> Do you know what that tuning actually is? I don't recall seeing the
>> details.

>it's *got* to be in scala. isn't it?

The file is secor.scl.

Manuel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> > <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > all well temperaments other then ET are irregular, aren't they?
a well
> > > temperament is meant to function in every key; while this
usually is
> > > in reference to a 12-tone key system and 5-limit tuning
paradigm, the
> > > concept can certainly be generalized to other schema, as for
example
> > > secor's 17-tone tuning.
> >
> > Do you know what that tuning actually is? I don't recall seeing
the
> > details.
>
> it's *got* to be in scala. isn't it?

Yes, it's there somewhere. But here's a brief description of it:

<< The 17-tone well temperament is composed of a circle of 17
tempered fifths (of 10deg17), occurring in two different sizes. The
fifths in the far side of the circle, from tones C-semiflat to G-
semisharp, are approximately 704.37699 cents (or ~2.422 cents wide),
such that tones separated by four fifths in the series (less two
octaves) will be in the exact ratio of 11:14.

The remaining fifths (in the near side of the circle), from tones A-
flat to B (the end-points of the first series renamed and taken in
reverse order) are then all made the same size, approximately
707.22045 (or ~5.265 cents wide), which results in tones separated by
seven fourths in this part of the circle (less two octaves) being
almost exactly in a ratio of 6:11. The error of these fifths is
about the same as in 31-ET, but in the opposite direction. >>

The purpose of 17-WT is to approximate 6:7:9:11:13 pentads in several
keys, the best keys being those built on F, C, G, D, and A.

An article that I wrote for Xenharmonikon 18 (from which the above
quote was taken) will give more information about the advantages of
this temperament over 17-ET.

--George