Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Interval Database Experiences

Hi folks, I guess I mentioned a while ago I'd start an Interval
Databse, so let me mention my experiences, let's go...

I made an algorythm that made the following sequence by calculations;

num den ratio
1 1 1
2 1 2
3 2 1,5
4 3 1,33333333333333
5 3 1,66666666666667
5 4 1,25
7 4 1,75
6 5 1,2
7 5 1,4
8 5 1,6
9 5 1,8
ETC.....

I used and created a databse, I said that the division of my two
terms shouldn't be more than 2, and if a ratio value wasn't in the
database it should be inserted there. The denominator would increase
in value up to where I wanted... etc... etc... I also created a
column for the value in cents, and names if there were any (I got the
name from a couple of lists on the net).

Anyway, by that algorythm I coud easily calculate all these intervals
and I chose to do that up to a denominator of 1024, wich gave me all
the integer ratio intervals in an octave up to 2047/1024!!! That gave
me 318.965 numbers of intervals in na octave.

I was first doing that to convert a value in cents to a ratio
proportion, I guess the only way should be a database convertion. But
I realized that in these samples of intervals that I've got so far,
there are many small differences ( obviously, there are about 320
thousand, damn it ). For exemple, from 699.5 and 700.5 cents, this
universe of 1 cent arround the 12EQ fifth, I have 288 Intervals from
1411/942 (699.50282758137712 cents ) to 1187/792 (700.49711947475646
cents).

So at this point I started wondering about the practical use of a
bigger database, and even wonder about the use of big interval
ratios. I know that there are famous tempraments that user higher
number ratios [ Pythagorean for Exemple ( C# = 2187/2048 = 113,685
cents ) ].

But in my database I have 2 intervals between 113.68 and 113.69;

1007/943 = 113.68080879802572 cents &
236/221 = 113.6885879644916 cents

Now 236/221 is much simpler than 2187/2048 and the difference is only
0.0035... cents

Wich makes me believe that in this dimension, ( maybe about a couple
of cents ) a lot of big integer ratio proportions are more
theoretical than practical. That's when I talked to my accoustic
teacher, wich told me about the DLO effect, and the William's
syndrom. He also agreed when I mentioned the C# pythagorean example,
but he reminded me that a temperament is characterized by other
parameters that make it special than the possible similarity of a
simpler integer ratio, and that most people won't hear a difference
of a few cents.

That's when I felt like bringing this discussion to the group, (What
you guys have to say about that?) I hope you can all help me figuring
out how to categorize these samll differences... anyway, I'll save
the rest for a reply...

Cheers
Alex

Ps. Would anyone like to get the database?

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:

> Now 236/221 is much simpler than 2187/2048 and the difference is
only
> 0.0035... cents
>

Alex, it all depends on how you define simple (or complex, for that
matter), and that's a big topic in a lot of fields besides music.
When 2187/2048 is the result of compounding a series of very simple
intervals, it may be simpler than 236/221.

Whether the acoustical difference between the two is meaningful or
not depends on how you use the intervals, what your musical context
is. I can imagine a piece of music going in pure fifths to the
2187/2048 interval, and I can imagine another piece going in a
mixture of intervals to 236/221, now try substituting one pitch for
the other as an end to the two pieces. Can you hear the difference?
Is the difference anything but an issue of honesty? I don't know
myself.

Gabor

🔗jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>

Alex a ï¿½crit :

> Hi folks, I guess I mentioned a while ago I'd start an Interval
> Databse, so let me mention my experiences, let's go...
> I made an algorythm that made the following sequence by calculations;
>
> num den ratio
> 1 1 1
> 2 1 2
> 3 2 1,5
> 4 3 1,33333333333333
> 5 3 1,66666666666667
> 5 4 1,25
> 7 4 1,75
> 6 5 1,2
> 7 5 1,4
> 8 5 1,6
> 9 5 1,8
> ETC.....
>
> I used and created a databse, I said that the division of my two
> terms shouldn't be more than 2, and if a ratio value wasn't in the
> database it should be inserted there. The denominator would increase
> in value up to where I wanted... etc... etc... I also created a
> column for the value in cents, and names if there were any (I got the
> name from a couple of lists on the net).

Fantastic !

> Anyway, by that algorythm I coud easily calculate all these intervals
> and I chose to do that up to a denominator of 1024, wich gave me all
> the integer ratio intervals in an octave up to 2047/1024!!! That gave
> me 318.965 numbers of intervals in na octave.
>
> I was first doing that to convert a value in cents to a ratio
> proportion, I guess the only way should be a database convertion. But
> I realized that in these samples of intervals that I've got so far,
> there are many small differences ( obviously, there are about 320
> thousand, damn it ). For exemple, from 699.5 and 700.5 cents, this
> universe of 1 cent arround the 12EQ fifth, I have 288 Intervals from
> 1411/942 (699.50282758137712 cents ) to 1187/792 (700.49711947475646
> cents).
> So at this point I started wondering about the practical use of a
> bigger database,

Well, since you have the numerators in one column, would not it be possible for the
user to decide up to what number he's interested, then to do the research ?

> and even wonder about the use of big interval
> ratios. I know that there are famous tempraments that user higher
> number ratios [ Pythagorean for Exemple ( C# = 2187/2048 = 113,685
> cents ) ].
> But in my database I have 2 intervals between 113.68 and 113.69;
> 1007/943 = 113.68080879802572 cents &
> 236/221 = 113.6885879644916 cents
> Now 236/221 is much simpler than 2187/2048 and the difference is only
> 0.0035... cents

Some others might say that the prime number 3 is simpler than the prime number 221,
therefore it is the contrary, from another point of view.
Anyway 16/15 (111,73 c.) could be in most cases a good alternative to both -

> Wich makes me believe that in this dimension, ( maybe about a couple
> of cents ) a lot of big integer ratio proportions are more
> theoretical than practical.

No no, probably for most microtonal musicians, but not for me. I am playing instruments
(photosonic disk machines, and a digital version of it) that make use currently of such
ratios. And for various reasons, different ratios for very close intervals will express
very different music. For example, the dividors of the numbers used in the ratios
are crucial for me, because I can generate different bass tones harmonies from them.
So each ratio contains its own music, no matter the identity of interval dimension ...

> That's when I talked to my accoustic
> teacher, wich told me about the DLO effect, and the William's
> syndrom.

Sorry, but I'm ignorant of those - could you explain briefly (or offlist, if everybody
else knows...)

> He also agreed when I mentioned the C# pythagorean example,
> but he reminded me that a temperament is characterized by other
> parameters that make it special than the possible similarity of a
> simpler integer ratio, and that most people won't hear a difference
> of a few cents.
> That's when I felt like bringing this discussion to the group, (What
> you guys have to say about that?) I hope you can all help me figuring
> out how to categorize these samll differences... anyway, I'll save
> the rest for a reply...

great !

> Cheers
> Alex
>
> Ps. Would anyone like to get the database?

I do ! (how many Kbytes ?!)

🔗Porres <decuritiba@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...> wrote:
> Alex a écrit :

> Well, since you have the numerators in one column, would not it be
possible for the
> user to decide up to what number he's interested, then to do the
research ?

> > Ps. Would anyone like to get the database?

> I do ! (how many Kbytes ?!)

Sorry? What do you mean? I thougth about one situation where I could
link an internet site to the database, and people could consult it
for convertion, find names, and also for download and then they could
do their analisys on their own, and I was also expecting some kind of
help, where people would make additions and important increments.

Now, I did the algorythm in SQL language, and I put it on an SQL
Serve database, but then I exported to ACCESS, the 320 thousand
intervals fit on a 10 Mega Byte ACCESS file, that I figure it's easy
and popular for everyone to have a look.

As for the research you asked for, I don't know, if one is familiar
with manipulating data on a database you can do what you want on your
own, and if it should be on an internet site I'd have to pre-program
the researches, as for the algorythm you can do it in different ways,
I figured out how to make them go as a prime factor, using only
multiples of three, and I'm also working on getting an accurate
irrational database together with it.

I'm sorry if I explained nothing you wanted... shoot back please...

> No no, probably for most microtonal musicians, but not for me. I am
playing instruments
> (photosonic disk machines, and a digital version of it) that make
use currently of such
> ratios. And for various reasons, different ratios for very close
intervals will express
> very different music. For example, the dividors of the numbers used
in the ratios
> are crucial for me, because I can generate different bass tones
harmonies from them.
> So each ratio contains its own music, no matter the identity of
interval dimension ...

Oops, what are the photosonic disk machines, where can I see them on
the net? Someone was explaining me here that harmonically you can
hear differences, I got that, and I guess you mentioned about
eletronically generating harmonies, I can imagine how you can get
different results using different primes, my main question was if you
could actually hear the difference between an harmonical interval of
2187/2048 and 236/221, that is only 0.0035... cents

> Sorry, but I'm ignorant of those - could you explain briefly (or
offlist, if everybody
> else knows...)

when very small intervals sound together they produce beatings,
that's the DLO effect, and the William's syndrom it's a rare
disfunction where people can distinguish different kinds of
airplains, hoovering machines, by their sounds, and they can also
memorize and reproduce very accurate frequencies, that's about it.

Cheers
Alex
I guess the DLO effect is the human psychoaccoustics

🔗Porres <decuritiba@yahoo.com>

I see, I'll work on that definatelly, and check the differences.

But this discussion of small interval differences is not the main
issue of a database, I was just analysing the data, and I felt like
if I kept going up my algorythm to ( let's say ) 3 million intervals,
about 10 times what I got now, it'd take a hell of a time, and I
don't know for what good, I'd have many thousands intervals for each
cents, it just seemed kinda stupid for me, So I felt like pointing
this all to you guys and see what use you could see on this kind of
effort...

I got it all ready and working, and I could go on, but I'm wondering
if it's that worthy, let's see how much enthusiasm this database can
provide...

cheers
Alex

> Now 236/221 is much simpler than 2187/2048 and the difference is
only
> 0.0035... cents

> Alex, it all depends on how you define simple. When 2187/2048 is
the result of compounding a series of very simple
> intervals, it may be simpler than 236/221.

> Is the difference anything but an issue of honesty? I don't know
> myself.
>
> Gabor

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:
> I see, I'll work on that definatelly, and check the differences.
>
> But this discussion of small interval differences is not the main
> issue of a database, I was just analysing the data, and I felt like
> if I kept going up my algorythm to ( let's say ) 3 million intervals,
> about 10 times what I got now, it'd take a hell of a time, and I
> don't know for what good, I'd have many thousands intervals for each
> cents, it just seemed kinda stupid for me, So I felt like pointing
> this all to you guys and see what use you could see on this kind of
> effort...

When I want to look at intervals near a given one, I use an algorithm
which finds the next or previous interval in the nth row of the Farey
sequence (with denominators <= n, therefore.) These can then be
filtered so as to only give the p-limit if that is what you are
looking for.

🔗Porres <decuritiba@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:

> There's no difficulty in doing that; you don't need a table.

Oh really, how can I do that? I remember I saw someone asking about
this somewhere, and there was a reply that you couldn't actually do
it, that's how I first had the idea of doing what I did.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:

> When I want to look at intervals near a given one, I use an
algorithm
> which finds the next or previous interval in the nth row of the
Farey
> sequence (with denominators <= n, therefore.) These can then be
> filtered so as to only give the p-limit if that is what you are
> looking for.

Filtered? Do you mean when you're developing a synthesis or in which
case do you need to look for these intervals. Gee, I can't help but
feel so amateur, you all keep answering me and I only have more
questions, oh dear...

Have you all tuning enthusiast begun studying it without a great deal
of mathematical background, I've been interested in this issue for
quite a while, and it's hard to find a complete guide to tudy, I dig
the begginer stuff very well, but I seem to be stuck as to moving to
the next level, any hints, clues... ?

Thanks a bunch
Cheers
Alex!

🔗Graham Breed <graham@microtonal.co.uk>

🔗jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>

Porres a ï¿½crit :

> Oops, what are the photosonic disk machines, where can I see them on
> the net?

http://aeh.free.fr

Sorry, it's mostly in french, but there are a few english lines in the pages
"Synthï¿½se photosonique"
"Lumiï¿½res audibles"
"English"
and there are pictures.

> Someone was explaining me here that harmonically you can
> hear differences, I got that, and I guess you mentioned about
> eletronically generating harmonies, I can imagine how you can get
> different results using different primes, my main question was if you
> could actually hear the difference between an harmonical interval of
> 2187/2048 and 236/221, that is only 0.0035... cents

That much cents not many can, and most instruments do not have this precision
anyway ; but in various processes of scale composition, using one expression or
another makes a practical difference.
My suggestions (but you're the maker...) would be to have a column for the
divisors, such as
3^7 / 2^11 or 59.2^2 / 221 : that would be useful,
and to have presets of intervals from numbers between 2^n and 2^(n+1) :
for n = 0, 1 interval
for n = 1, 3 intervals
for n = 2, 10 intervals
.
.
.
for n = 10, 318.966 intervals
(...how many intervals for n = 7, 8, 9 ?)

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

Somewhat related to what Porres is working on...

Based on my _initial_ learning about tunings, I thought I would create a
webpage that would allow people to enter scales (in cents or ratios or any
of a number of different ways) and do apply various kinds of analysis to the
scales. In my case I was trying to reproduce the error analysis data
reported in The Well-Tempered Organ by Charles A. Padgham, so that I could
try my own scales and do comparative analysis. I figured, having done this
for myself, I should then put it onto the web so that others could use it.

The reason I bring this up is that it strikes me as much more useful to
create a tool that will generate a table, and which you can change the next
day to generate a different table, rather than bothering to publish simply a
table or a database. Even better if anyone can use your tool to produce the
table they need that day.

This is an area in which I can eventually contribute, and I have a web
server at my disposal, and the programming involved should be no great
difficulty. But it may be a few months before I will have time available
for this.

In any case, you may want to factor this thinking into your approach,
regardless of whether I end up helping you with the task. I can definitely
make web resources available, including cgi capability, to people on this
list who would have a use for it. But please don't all come knocking at
once, because my (personal) bandwidth for it is rather limited at the
moment.

Since I'm new here, I am unaware of what other people may have already done
in terms of making web resources available.

-Kurt Bigler

on 6/3/03 8:17 AM, jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr> wrote:

> Porres a écrit :
>
>> Oops, what are the photosonic disk machines, where can I see them on
>> the net?
>
> http://aeh.free.fr
>
> Sorry, it's mostly in french, but there are a few english lines in the pages
> "Synthèse photosonique"
> "Lumières audibles"
> "English"
> and there are pictures.
>
>> Someone was explaining me here that harmonically you can
>> hear differences, I got that, and I guess you mentioned about
>> eletronically generating harmonies, I can imagine how you can get
>> different results using different primes, my main question was if you
>> could actually hear the difference between an harmonical interval of
>> 2187/2048 and 236/221, that is only 0.0035... cents
>
> That much cents not many can, and most instruments do not have this precision
> anyway ; but in various processes of scale composition, using one expression
> or
> another makes a practical difference.
> My suggestions (but you're the maker...) would be to have a column for the
> divisors, such as
> 3^7 / 2^11 or 59.2^2 / 221 : that would be useful,
> and to have presets of intervals from numbers between 2^n and 2^(n+1) :
> for n = 0, 1 interval
> for n = 1, 3 intervals
> for n = 2, 10 intervals
> .
> .
> .
> for n = 10, 318.966 intervals
> (...how many intervals for n = 7, 8, 9 ?)
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/3/03 7:30 PM, Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>> Somewhat related to what Porres is working on...
>>
>> Based on my _initial_ learning about tunings, I thought I would create a
>> webpage that would allow people to enter scales (in cents or ratios
> or any
>> of a number of different ways) and do apply various kinds of
> analysis to the
>> scales.
>
> It's a thought, but what would it do that Scala doesn't already do?

My point in bringing up that particular thing was just as an example of how
a tool may be more useful than a table. For myself, I wanted to make the
Padgham book (full of tables, of limited use to me) into a tool (of much
more use). In fact I have finished that, but I have not put it into a form
useful on the web yet, nor even found out whether that is useful. The idea
to do that particular thing came up before I knew about Scala. In fact
(slightly embarassed) I haven't tried Scala yet, so I don't know. But I
just looked at the web page, and one thing occurs to me: it will be useful
to have something that is web enabled, requiring no downloading or
installing of software, and therefore having no platform compatibility
issues. If you just need an answer one day, it is nice to go use an
existing piece of software without even having to install it, never mind
platform compatibility.

However, back to my main point... I really just wanted you to consider how
a tool might be more useful than a table for your current project, and to
keep me posted if you think you could make use of web resources, even if you
ultimately need programming help.

Thanks,
Kurt

🔗Manuel Op de Coul <manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com>

🔗Porres <decuritiba@yahoo.com>

Well, I consciously didn't assume I was doing anything new, as a
begginer I was aware that lots of experts have done even further, I
was actually trying to learn by myself, wich is harder but better...

> (slightly embarassed) I haven't tried Scala yet, so I don't know.

ha ha, I kinda went through the same thing, people have warned me
about scala features, and I downloaded scala, but as I couldn't play
more than 12 notes per octave with my KORG synthesiser I kept using C-
Sound.

> keep me posted if you think you could make use of web resources,
even if you
> ultimately need programming help.

hmmm, as I have bumped into lots of web resources that I hadn't seen,
it'd be nice if we could have them all posted together as links,
specially if you want to develop a new one, I guess all these folks
here should get together and put all these online resources in one
Web site, together, it'd be damn coll, huh? One problem that I feel
is that all this information is spreaded...

> Thanks,
> Kurt

thanks
Alex

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:
> hmmm, as I have bumped into lots of web resources that I hadn't seen,
> it'd be nice if we could have them all posted together as links,
> specially if you want to develop a new one, I guess all these folks
> here should get together and put all these online resources in one
> Web site, together, it'd be damn coll, huh? One problem that I feel
> is that all this information is spreaded...

That is something that has been talked about for *years*. There is only one person - Joe Monzo - who comes close to accomplishing this sort of thing, and his tuning dictionary is the largest collaborative effort from the tuning arena. There are some related resources, such as John Loffink's guide to microtonal hard/soft ware synths, but that isn't tuning research in the same manner that you point to. And Joe did virtually all of the work, having to cajole people, or people hammering him to fix this or fix that.

This 'community' seems to be populated with a lot of people that like to investigate things but not take the time to document them, publish them, or even make websites about them. Lots and lots and lots of potentially great information, all with one response: "Well, it's in the archives, just search for the messages about it."

I don't know, maybe your post will be the tipping point. As for holding my breath...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/3/03 8:11 PM, Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com> wrote:

> on 6/3/03 7:30 PM, Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org> wrote:
>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>>> Somewhat related to what Porres is working on...
>>>
>>> Based on my _initial_ learning about tunings, I thought I would create a
>>> webpage that would allow people to enter scales (in cents or ratios
>> or any
>>> of a number of different ways) and do apply various kinds of
>> analysis to the
>>> scales.
>>
>> It's a thought, but what would it do that Scala doesn't already do?
>
> My point in bringing up that particular thing was just as an example of how
> a tool may be more useful than a table. For myself, I wanted to make the
> Padgham book (full of tables, of limited use to me) into a tool (of much
> more use). In fact I have finished that, but I have not put it into a form
> useful on the web yet, nor even found out whether that is useful. The idea
> to do that particular thing came up before I knew about Scala. In fact
> (slightly embarassed) I haven't tried Scala yet, so I don't know. But I
> just looked at the web page, and one thing occurs to me: it will be useful
> to have something that is web enabled, requiring no downloading or
> installing of software, and therefore having no platform compatibility
> issues. If you just need an answer one day, it is nice to go use an
> existing piece of software without even having to install it, never mind
> platform compatibility.

Sorry, Gene, this next part was not really directed to you, but to Porres.
(I was pretty tired when I wrote this email yesterday. :) And I see Porres
already figured that out anyway.

-Kurt

>
> However, back to my main point... I really just wanted you to consider how
> a tool might be more useful than a table for your current project, and to
> keep me posted if you think you could make use of web resources, even if you
> ultimately need programming help.
>
> Thanks,
> Kurt
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/4/03 9:32 AM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:
>> hmmm, as I have bumped into lots of web resources that I hadn't seen,
>> it'd be nice if we could have them all posted together as links,
>> specially if you want to develop a new one, I guess all these folks
>> here should get together and put all these online resources in one
>> Web site, together, it'd be damn coll, huh? One problem that I feel
>> is that all this information is spreaded...
>
> That is something that has been talked about for *years*. There is only one
> person - Joe Monzo - who comes close to accomplishing this sort of thing, and
> his tuning dictionary is the largest collaborative effort from the tuning
> arena. There are some related resources, such as John Loffink's guide to
> microtonal hard/soft ware synths, but that isn't tuning research in the same
> manner that you point to. And Joe did virtually all of the work, having to
> cajole people, or people hammering him to fix this or fix that.
>
> This 'community' seems to be populated with a lot of people that like to
> investigate things but not take the time to document them, publish them, or
> even make websites about them.

Well, tunings.org and tunings.net are taken, but tunings.com is available.
Should I go reserve it? I'll be glad to donate the domain (or any domain
you like), plus web hosting, if there is any interest. I can't do anything
too fancy in terms of creating public forums right now, but I can offer
plain-ol web hosting if there are people who know how to upload pages. I
can try to coordinate the efforts, but can't do a lot of web design at this
point.

-Kurt

> Lots and lots and lots of potentially great
> information, all with one response: "Well, it's in the archives, just search
> for the messages about it."
>
> I don't know, maybe your post will be the tipping point. As for holding my
> breath...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

Kurt,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> Well, tunings.org and tunings.net are taken, but tunings.com is available.
> Should I go reserve it? I'll be glad to donate the domain (or any domain
> you like), plus web hosting, if there is any interest. I can't do anything
> too fancy in terms of creating public forums right now, but I can offer
> plain-ol web hosting if there are people who know how to upload pages. I
> can try to coordinate the efforts, but can't do a lot of web design at this
> point.

You're a kind soul! I can't be counted on, because I already administer one discussion group, one mailing list, and 2 or 3 websites (in my 'free' time). You can ask around here for help. You might also want to look back in the archives when Robert Walker and some others tried to get people to write up short essays on some general tuning topics, so that new people to the list wouldn't have to reinvent wheels all the time. You'll notice that those pages don't exist at this point. It is a tough sell around here, but if you want to coordinate something, I wish you the very best of luck!!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/4/03 3:58 PM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM> wrote:

> Kurt,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>> Well, tunings.org and tunings.net are taken, but tunings.com is available.
>> Should I go reserve it? I'll be glad to donate the domain (or any domain
>> you like), plus web hosting, if there is any interest. I can't do anything
>> too fancy in terms of creating public forums right now, but I can offer
>> plain-ol web hosting if there are people who know how to upload pages. I
>> can try to coordinate the efforts, but can't do a lot of web design at this
>> point.
>
> You're a kind soul! I can't be counted on, because I already administer one
> discussion group, one mailing list, and 2 or 3 websites (in my 'free' time).
> You can ask around here for help. You might also want to look back in the
> archives when Robert Walker and some others tried to get people to write up
> short essays on some general tuning topics, so that new people to the list
> wouldn't have to reinvent wheels all the time. You'll notice that those pages
> don't exist at this point. It is a tough sell around here, but if you want to
> coordinate something, I wish you the very best of luck!!

Ok, well in that case, I'll try to simplify things by offering to upload
pages myself, in _crude_ form, when others can't do it themselves. Sounds
like resistances are high enough already. Maybe I should make it a SWIKI
site so anyone can easily add things? I don't know how to do this but I
could probably find out. For those who don't know this is a kind of website
that lets anybody go to a page and start adding things to it that they might
have to contribute. Sort of like the yahoo sharing area, but with much
better organization. And very easy to use, I think, though I haven't had
experience adding material myself.

So lets wait for some material to surface. If I have even one page of
useful material offered, I'll go create the site, or even if I get a couple
more votes of confidence that this is worth doing. If you "vote" or offer
material, please chime in on the choice of domain name.

-Kurt Bigler

>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/4/03 4:17 PM, Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>> on 6/3/03 7:18 PM, Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>>
>>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:
>>>> --- In tuning-math@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's no difficulty in doing that; you don't need a table.
>>>>
>>>> Oh really, how can I do that?
>>>
>>> I've posted an explanation on tuning-math.
>>
>> Could you clarify that reference?
>
> /tuning-math/message/6293

Ah, I see. I had taken "explanation on tuning-math" to mean "explanation of
tuning-math" (as in "lecture on tuning-math") and didn't realize you were
referring to another group. (English prepositions are hard enough even for
us native speakers.)

Gee, I better not join that group or I'll get nothing done.

-Kurt

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/4/03 4:30 PM, Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>
>> So lets wait for some material to surface. If I have even one page of
>> useful material offered, I'll go create the site, or even if I get a
> couple
>> more votes of confidence that this is worth doing.
>
> Could you indicate what you mean by "useful"?

Something useful is something that anyone proposes and someone else seconds,
saying "yea that would be great" or similar words. Hows that? Should we
write up the constitution now? :)

Let's put it this way: Its hard to say what is useful, ultimately, but if
someone _feels_ they already have some useful material sitting around
unpublished for lack of a venue, I'm potentially offering the venue. If
there was such a flood of material that I couldn't keep up with it at all,
then I might ask for more help on what is "useful".

-Kurt

>
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>>Ok, well in that case, I'll try to simplify things by offering
>>to upload pages myself, in _crude_ form, when others can't do it
>>themselves. Sounds like resistances are high enough already.
>>Maybe I should make it a SWIKI site so anyone can easily add
>>things? I don't know how to do this but I could probably find out.
>
>That sounds like something Carl Lumma knows about, IIRC. Carl? You
>wanna be a webmaster?

I've been toying with the idea of setting up a tuning wiki for a
little while. I've even started looking at implementations. I don't
know anything about squeak/swiki, but the two implementations that
my research point to are SnipSnap and TWiki.

One of the easiest (free, hosted) wiki systems appears to be seedwiki
(it's here in Berkeley, I think).

-Carl

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/4/03 5:09 PM, Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org> wrote:

>>> Ok, well in that case, I'll try to simplify things by offering
>>> to upload pages myself, in _crude_ form, when others can't do it
>>> themselves. Sounds like resistances are high enough already.
>>> Maybe I should make it a SWIKI site so anyone can easily add
>>> things? I don't know how to do this but I could probably find out.
>>
>> That sounds like something Carl Lumma knows about, IIRC. Carl? You
>> wanna be a webmaster?
>
> I've been toying with the idea of setting up a tuning wiki for a
> little while. I've even started looking at implementations. I don't
> know anything about squeak/swiki, but the two implementations that
> my research point to are SnipSnap and TWiki.

Sounds like you are way ahead of me on that. Do you think people would take
to it?

>
> One of the easiest (free, hosted) wiki systems appears to be seedwiki

Is that what "SWIKI" stands for?

> (it's here in Berkeley, I think).

Hey, Berkeley is "here" for me too.

>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Porres <decuritiba@yahoo.com>

> (English prepositions are hard enough even for
> us native speakers.)

ha ha ha, imagine for me, I speak Portuguese (I live in Vrazil BTW),
althought I've taught English for a while, I sometimes feel lost with
some misunderstandings, not to mention that all of this tunings terms
become to a language itself. I know it's hard to keep yourself very
very clear when using forums, this happens in usual conversation but
we don't suffer from it as we solve the mistaks as we bump into them.

> Gee, I better not join that group or I'll get nothing done.
> -Kurt

That's the same feeling I had, that's why I mentioned to keep some of
the things as related as possible, very centered so we don't miss
them, it's cool of you to encourage such a web site, and volunteer to
coordinate, I think it's wonderful, maybe that's what's missing,
someone to coordinate and organize things well, it's great to have
lots of people doing research and everything, we have to think about
what else we need, and always sum up...

Unfortunately I'm one of those guys who are trying to reinvent the
wheel, even thought I 'don't know what's the use of it, ha ha ha
LOL...

GOOD LUCK MATE
CHEERS

ALEX PORRES!!!

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>> I've been toying with the idea of setting up a tuning wiki for a
>> little while. I've even started looking at implementations. I
>> don't know anything about squeak/swiki, but the two implementations
>> that my research point to are SnipSnap and TWiki.
>
>Sounds like you are way ahead of me on that. Do you think people
>would take to it?

That's one question. There are apparently people on this list who can't
set up an e-mail client (ie, wouldn't be here without the web interface),
and turning these loose on a wiki would be asking for it. The success
of the c2 wiki isn't the tech (indeed, it has the fewest features of
any implementation I've seen), but the conventions and "patterns" that
the community adheres to.

In short, I was planning to test it on tuning-math first.

>> One of the easiest (free, hosted) wiki systems appears to be
>> seedwiki
>
>Is that what "SWIKI" stands for?

SWiki stands for Squeak Wiki.

-Carl

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Jon,

> From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 9:32 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Interval Database Experiences
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Porres" <decuritiba@y...> wrote:
> > hmmm, as I have bumped into lots of web resources that I hadn't seen,
> > it'd be nice if we could have them all posted together as links,
> > specially if you want to develop a new one, I guess all these folks
> > here should get together and put all these online resources in one
> > Web site, together, it'd be damn coll, huh? One problem that I feel
> > is that all this information is spreaded...
>
> That is something that has been talked about for *years*.
> There is only one person - Joe Monzo - who comes close to
> accomplishing this sort of thing, and his tuning dictionary
> is the largest collaborative effort from the tuning arena.
> There are some related resources, such as John Loffink's
> guide to microtonal hard/soft ware synths, but that isn't
> tuning research in the same manner that you point to. And
> Joe did virtually all of the work, having to cajole people,
> or people hammering him to fix this or fix that.
>
> This 'community' seems to be populated with a lot of people
> that like to investigate things but not take the time to
> document them, publish them, or even make websites about
> them. Lots and lots and lots of potentially great information,
> all with one response: "Well, it's in the archives, just
> search for the messages about it."
>
> I don't know, maybe your post will be the tipping point.
> As for holding my breath...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

thanks for all the kind words, Jon. i've been fairly
inactive regarding my website lately, but there's much
more coming, and pretty soon too: my company is
tonalsoft.com, i anticipate the first release of my
software by the beginning of next year, and the whole
tuning dictionary and my essays on tuning will eventually
be integrated within the help files of the software.

-monz

🔗Graham Breed <graham@microtonal.co.uk>

Carl Lumma wrote:

> I've been toying with the idea of setting up a tuning wiki for a
> little while. I've even started looking at implementations. I don't
> know anything about squeak/swiki, but the two implementations that
> my research point to are SnipSnap and TWiki.

Yes, I've thought a Wiki would be a good idea for slightly longer. I had a look at Zwiki, but didn't get anywhere. All it needs is for somebody to got to the trouble of setting it up ...

I have looked at Squeak as well, when I was learning Smalltalk for Kyma. But hopefully, whatever package you use doesn't require you to know the underlying language.

> One of the easiest (free, hosted) wiki systems appears to be seedwiki
> (it's here in Berkeley, I think).

Sounds good! Does anybody want to go to the trouble of setting something up there?

As for normal website things, I can offer sub-sites on microtonal.co.uk and Gene already has one. The only thing is they can't be too big as I'm getting close to my quota. Although if they get big enough I can always upgrade the account. There's a cgi-bin and they say you I can run cron jobs now. I don't know how that would work with sub-sites, or how to set up a Wiki (see above).

Is microtonal.com still available?

Graham

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>Yes, I've thought a Wiki would be a good idea for slightly longer.
>I had a look at Zwiki, but didn't get anywhere.

Zope is highly controversial.

>I have looked at Squeak as well, when I was learning Smalltalk for
>Kyma. But hopefully, whatever package you use doesn't require you
>to know the underlying language.

Yeah, hopefully.

>>One of the easiest (free, hosted) wiki systems appears to be seedwiki
>>(it's here in Berkeley, I think).
>
>Sounds good! Does anybody want to go to the trouble of setting
>something up there?

I'll check it out today, if possible.

>Is microtonal.com still available?

I'm broke for new domains at the moment, but if anyone wants to buy
I'll see to it that a Wiki gets set up. Otherwise I've got plenty
of space at lumma.org, and the boys say TWiki should run. TWiki's
fast and has plugins which could be handy (such as spreadsheets and
tables), but is harder to set up and looks somewhat less polished
than SnipSnap, and doesn't appear to have blogs like SnipSnap.

-Carl

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 6/5/03 7:10 AM, Graham Breed <graham@microtonal.co.uk> wrote:

> Carl Lumma wrote:
>
>> I've been toying with the idea of setting up a tuning wiki for a
>> little while. I've even started looking at implementations. I don't
>> know anything about squeak/swiki, but the two implementations that
>> my research point to are SnipSnap and TWiki.
>
> Yes, I've thought a Wiki would be a good idea for slightly longer. I
> had a look at Zwiki, but didn't get anywhere. All it needs is for
> somebody to got to the trouble of setting it up ...
>
> I have looked at Squeak as well, when I was learning Smalltalk for Kyma.
> But hopefully, whatever package you use doesn't require you to know
> the underlying language.
>
>> One of the easiest (free, hosted) wiki systems appears to be seedwiki
>> (it's here in Berkeley, I think).
>
> Sounds good! Does anybody want to go to the trouble of setting
> something up there?

I probably can't set up a wiki in any hurry. But I can host it on my server
pronto if somebody else wants to do the work. Or alternatively if someone
finds me a simple install recipe that will work under FreeBSD then I can
probably handle the make/install part. I probably can't spend a lot of time
researching wiki server software alternatives, and besides it sounds like
several people here alreay know a lot about wiki, which I don't yet.

> As for normal website things, I can offer sub-sites on microtonal.co.uk
> and Gene already has one. The only thing is they can't be too big as
> I'm getting close to my quota.

I can probably offer a sizable fraction of a gigabyte. If there is a lot of
need for big multimedia files maybe this is not enough, but for text and
cgi's it will last a long time. (I have a "virtual" server with a 1GB limit
currently.) If you have domains out there that you want to make subdomains
of, we can also point those subdomains to my server. To clarify,
somedomain.com/subsite has to be on the same server as somedomain.com, but
subsite.somedomain.com can be on an entirely different server (e.g. mine).
However the somedomain.com DNS host must set this up.

> Although if they get big enough I can
> always upgrade the account. There's a cgi-bin and they say you I can
> run cron jobs now. I don't know how that would work with sub-sites, or
> how to set up a Wiki (see above).
>
> Is microtonal.com still available?

Micorotonal.com is taken. .org is taken by somebody else. .net is
available. But, nieve question: doesn't microtonal suggest something that
might seem to go so far beyond just "alternate tunings" that it might chase
12-tone people away rather than draw them in? As I said yesterday,
tunings.com is available. (I didn't not check availability carefully, just
entered into browser and got "no such server" or whatever - so need to check
more carefully later.)

-Kurt

>
>
> Graham

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>

monz in tuning list thursday 5th of june wrote :

> >
> i pride myself on keeping up with tuning
> terminology ... what am i missing out on here?

Hello Joe,
I enjoy your dictionnary a lot, in fact it is quite complementary to my personnal approach
of tuning, and very well done.
But I noticed a few terms, or concepts are lacking.
There is for example no entry on difference tones, which is the basis on my research on
"differential coherence", the subject of an article I wrote in 1998, first published in french
and translated recently in the last 1/1 journal issue.
Differential coherence is used in my CD Lumiï¿½res audibles (1996), and in many other
pieces of mine and a few other composers ;
It has been discussed briefly in the tuning list, where Gene proposed an improved formal
definition of it ; it has been implemented recently by Manuel Op de Coul
in the last version of Scala ;
It is also the basis of another area or research of our group called the "fractal series",
and the "fractal waveforms" where timber and intonation become a single thing.
It is a very practical thing, whose qualities have been tested through many studies we
did collectively here in the permanent psychoacoustic workshop of the AEH.
And I can give exemples of how most traditional scales are strongly differentially
coherent.
I am nowadays completing a database of differential-coherent scales (I don't know if
I should say "differentially coherent" or differential-coherent", whatever) which will be
published in our website (in progress) as soon as I reach a significant number.
So it should be mentionned in your dictionnary, as one simple and very powerful tool
for sound exploration. It's not very complex either and I can help you to resume it
in a few words - except that english is not my native language.
Cheers,
and good luck also for tonalsoft...
---------------------------------------------------
Jacques Dudon - Atelier d'Exploration Harmonique
Les Camails
83340 Le Thoronet - France
tel +fax : 33 (0)494 73 87 78
2nd tel +messages : 33 (0)494 73 80 25
mailto:aeh@free.fr
http://aeh.free.fr