Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning 13 (waaz 11 & 7 (wasRe: hi, i'm back & a few ???)

In a message dated 2003:05:05 12:23:59 PM, wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

>there are several phenomena you may want to read up on:
>
>* combinational tones (difference tones, summation tones)
>* virtual pitch
>* periodicity pitch

I have read up on acoustics a bit, but - to be totally frank and honest -
I am almost totally ignorant&/or deliberately overlooking "virtual pitch" and
"periodicity pitch."
You have any suggestions on readings on "virtual pitch" and "periodicity
pitch"?
Like - for starters - something reaaaally easy to begin mentally chewing on,
but leads to other readings more in-depth? Like a Dummy's Guide version :}

I tackled the really juicy idea of combination tones some years back to
create a reaally odd scale deliberately designed to create wild combination
tones - amongst other effects - normally avoided in the creation of music
instruments (in this case a fairly large metallophone that I had custom made
by Richard Cooke of FreeNotes):

the Cobalt Blue & Grey Scale Tuning

1:1 21:20 7:6 32:25 21:16 11:8 7:5 3:2 13:8 12:7 7:4 16:9
9:5 2:1
C
@ 131.3 Hz

A few of these are extremely close together, but make for fantastic
combination tones - some close to infrasonic... phase cancellation effects...
spatial standing waves,... etc..
John Chalmers assisted me with advice and feedback in exploring _my_ idea
of a "really spicy, 'alien' sounding scale" (::sheepy-grin:: I think I owe
him a tape of me playing it as soon as I get access to a reliable recording
device... but this Blue & Grey monster hasta be heard _and_ felt in "Real
Life." Imagine MaryAnne Amacher doing some purely acoustic "Xeno-Pelog"
gamelan... in LaMonte Young's Dream House).

I also had Richard Cooke make me a much smaller metallophone set based on
acoustic data obtained by Chinese archaeo-musicologists from a set of 5
bronze bells from the Shang Period (of course this metallophone is ::wicked
grin:: "virtual-pitched" several octaves above the massive originals and
there seems to have been no octave or that particular bell was looted for the
bronze... but a few scholars doubt it, saying this set of bells was
deliberately made to be "incomplete" basing this on pre-Taoist
religio-shamanistic aesthetics of "suggestive incompleteness"):

1:1 9:8 81:64 3:2 27:16
Hz 346.743 390.086 438.847 520.1145 585.128
#F4 roughly

>these help explain the "why" of the observation above. utonalities
>look utterly, completely different, and far more complex < SNiP >

I know. That's why I am asking so many questions about them. I seek to be
more expert on them since I am drawn to their "darker" tone-colour energy,
esp'ly when using JI. That's just my experience in playing tuned percussion,
bass guitar, guitar, various zithers and electronic keyboards.
I am a mostly-self-taught percussionist who doesn't feel limited to the
just so-call "Kitchen Sink Plus Department." Ferinstanz, I am keen on making
a cello-range tube-zither "TamburDrone" - an instrument less than a Harmonic
Canon, but more than a monochord and somewhat like a cross 'twixt a long
board zither (i.e. koto, qin, kayagum), tambura, a hammered/bowed dulcimer
and a viola d'amore.
I am trying to figure out a do-able microtonal/multi-timbral tuning
system for this instrument. So far I have mapped out a few ratios from an
JI-adapted 7-tone Pelog scale in/to a basic inverted Japanese nonatonic
scale-mode called _Taishikicho_- a poetically called a mode of "rock boxes."
I am adding additional ratios from _certain_ other scale-tuning systems
(i.e. Indian shruti, Pythagorean Arabic, Gothic, Pythagorean-mediant 13-limit
tuning and non-octave odd-prime 13-limit tuning) around these "nuclear"
pitches to make it much more chromatic and enharmonic, more "stellated",
"bifurcated." Tentatively, I am calling it the WabiSabi /Luciferinnebula
Scale.

>again, i see no bias engendered by 12-equal that would lead to more
>familiarity or comfort with otonalities than utonalities. there are
>purely acoustical considerations that make this assymmetry evident to
>any composer/improviser, at least on many instruments, and would
>affect musical practice no matter what the tuning system. meanwhile,
>12-equal musical practice is very rich with minor chords, half-
>diminished seventh chords, etc. . . . the fact that chord functions,
>as they've evolved, are not exactly invertible in 12-equal is a
>reflection of the underlying acoustic reality that would play out in
>any tuning system. helmholtz was certainly not a fan of 12-equal, yet
>once he gets to the discussion of combinational tones, the
>otonal/utonal assymmetry is evident, and comes directly from an
>*acoustical*, not a *socio-culturalized*, basis.

Okay. Thanx.

<SNiP>

>> Here's an example in 13-limit JI...
>> Mayumi Reinhard's 13-Limit JI:
>
>> 1/1
>
>> 14/13
>
>> 13/12
>
>> 16/13
>
>> 13/10
>
>> 18/13
>
>> 13/9
>
>> 20/13
>
>> 13/8
>
>> 22/13
>
>> 13/7
>
>> 208/105
>
>> 2/1
>
>this is a good example of what i was talking about (didn't you omit
>some notes? i thought it was a 14-note scale)

This is what I have in my notes (pardon the pun).

> . . . except weakly against 1/1, there's no "13-ness" to be found in this
system, while
>there is a 7:8:9:10:11 otonality (actually, i think it's
>7:8:9:10:11:12, aka 1:3:5:7:9:11, aka a complete 11-limit otonality,
>assuming you left out a 24/13), and a similar utonality, delineating
>the strongest harmonic connections within this system . . . and there
>is very little in the way of "just" resources connecting these two
>harmonic spheres in this scale.

I am suddenly confused. In order to have the 13-ness, it has to be
connected - like a spine of 5ths or septimal intervals or whatever? Or
surrounded/around by such spines &/or intervals - thus contrasted with other
pitches?

>> ... for a "extended 13-prime-only utonality" one just would
>replace all the otonal 13-ratios with ... whatever is
>> theoritically/aesthetically/subjectively "suitable" like
>Pythagorean "equivalents"
>
>whoa . . . you lost me. can you step back and clarify, with examples?
>anyway, if you're talking about a large scale or tuning system,
>you're probably not talking about a single chord, so again musical
>context might be an important question . . .

Oops... I neglected to say this was ALL about scales and tuning systems
0_o?
My bad brainie... ::bangs head on quasi-12tET toy piano next to his
desk-sized PDA of a Mac::
::mummbles sumthin' 'bout bein' an absent-minded Musical Mad
Scientist@Large::
I think what I mean is what are called more exactly:
- Pythagorean-mediant 13-limit tuning
- non-octave odd-prime 13-limit tuning

Paulie, I am quite appreciative of all the effort you put in giving me
all these questions to clarify what I do know vs. what I don't (and need to
know).

---
Hanuman Zhang
§ ∞ 69 ∞ § @ § ∞ 69 ∞ § @ § ∞ 69 ∞ § @ § ∞ 69 ∞ §

"...So what is life for? Life is for beauty and substance and sound and
colour; and even those are often forbidden by law [socio-cultural
conventions]. . . . Why not be free and live your own life? Why follow other
people's rules and live to please others?..." ~Lieh-Tzu/Liezi, Taoist Sage
(c. 450- c. 375 BCE)

"...we may be able to prove conclusively that all men are born with
potentially brilliant intellects...and that the source of cultural creativity
is the consciousness that springs from social cooperation and loving
interaction...the majority of us live far below our potential, because of the
oppressive nature of most societies." - John Blacking

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius --- and a lot of courage --- to move in
the opposite direction."
- E. F. Schumacker

"Excess is excrement. Excrement retained in the body is poison." - Ursula
Le Guin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2003:05:05 12:23:59 PM, wallyesterpaulrus@y...
writes:
>
> >there are several phenomena you may want to read up on:
> >
> >* combinational tones (difference tones, summation tones)
> >* virtual pitch
> >* periodicity pitch
>
> I have read up on acoustics a bit, but - to be totally frank
and honest -
> I am almost totally ignorant&/or deliberately overlooking "virtual
pitch" and
> "periodicity pitch."
> You have any suggestions on readings on "virtual pitch"
and "periodicity
> pitch"?
> Like - for starters - something reaaaally easy to begin mentally
chewing on,
> but leads to other readings more in-depth? Like a Dummy's Guide
version :}

for a start, read the last three chapters of

http://www.windworld.com/emi/bookstore/hall.htm

and much of

http://www.windworld.com/emi/bookstore/roedere.htm

then we can discuss and move on to some theories and recent
experiments as discussed on the web.
>
> I know. That's why I am asking so many questions about them. I
seek to be
> more expert on them since I am drawn to their "darker" tone-colour
energy,
> esp'ly when using JI. That's just my experience in playing tuned
percussion,
> bass guitar, guitar, various zithers and electronic keyboards.

i find that utonalities are especially potent (and "tunable") on
acoustic guitars and zithers, probably because such chords maximize
the coincidence of overtones, and on such instruments the common
overtones will reinforce one another through sympathetic vibrations.

> <SNiP>
>
> >> Here's an example in 13-limit JI...
> >> Mayumi Reinhard's 13-Limit JI:
> >
> >> 1/1
> >
> >> 14/13
> >
> >> 13/12
> >
> >> 16/13
> >
> >> 13/10
> >
> >> 18/13
> >
> >> 13/9
> >
> >> 20/13
> >
> >> 13/8
> >
> >> 22/13
> >
> >> 13/7
> >
> >> 208/105
> >
> >> 2/1
> >
> >this is a good example of what i was talking about (didn't you
omit
> >some notes? i thought it was a 14-note scale)
>
> This is what I have in my notes (pardon the pun).
>
> > . . . except weakly against 1/1, there's no "13-ness" to be found
in this
> system, while
> >there is a 7:8:9:10:11 otonality (actually, i think it's
> >7:8:9:10:11:12, aka 1:3:5:7:9:11, aka a complete 11-limit
otonality,
> >assuming you left out a 24/13), and a similar utonality,
delineating
> >the strongest harmonic connections within this system . . . and
there
> >is very little in the way of "just" resources connecting these two
> >harmonic spheres in this scale.
>
> I am suddenly confused. In order to have the 13-ness, it has to
be
> connected - like a spine of 5ths or septimal intervals or whatever?

not really -- by 13-ness, i just mean something that clearly evokes
the sound of the 13th harmonic and/or the intervals it participates
in. 13-limit or higher otonalities, and perhaps utonalities, even if
sorely incomplete, can have this effect. but the scale above contains
no such structures, but instead appears to revolve primarily around a
lower-limit otonality and a lower-limit utonality which
barely "communicate" with one another in a just sense . . .

. . . but musical context really has to be considered! how will the
scale be used? if 1/1 is used as a drone and the other pitches never
appear in combination with one another, that's a very different story
than trying to weave various harmonic progressions using many of the
pitches in the scale . . .

> >> ... for a "extended 13-prime-only utonality" one just would
> >replace all the otonal 13-ratios with ... whatever is
> >> theoritically/aesthetically/subjectively "suitable" like
> >Pythagorean "equivalents"
> >
> >whoa . . . you lost me. can you step back and clarify, with
examples?
> >anyway, if you're talking about a large scale or tuning system,
> >you're probably not talking about a single chord, so again musical
> >context might be an important question . . .
>
> Oops... I neglected to say this was ALL about scales and tuning
systems
> 0_o?

????

how about giving me, for now, an example of what you mean
by "extended 13-prime-only utonality" ?

> I think what I mean is what are called more exactly:
> - Pythagorean-mediant 13-limit tuning

example?

> - non-octave odd-prime 13-limit tuning

example?

> Paulie, I am quite appreciative of all the effort you put in
giving me
> all these questions to clarify what I do know vs. what I don't (and
need to
> know).

no problem! also note that i have nothing against simply throwing
numbers together and seeing what they sound like as scales, letting
the musicianly instinct take over. this was jacky's tack, and as an
unabashed numerologist, he invented terminology for such scales (some
of which you may have picked up on) that did not necessarily relate
to any kind of acoustical characterization of the materials. the
latter becomes far more relevant in a richly harmonic style that
explores the different simultaneities possible -- but this is almost
diametrically opposed to jacky's actual musical concerns. so while
i'm happy to spend time on the kind of reasoning that this forum
tends to inspire in me, know that i value and encourage following the
mystical seed of musical inspiration even more highly . . . and now i
must be on my way, acoustic guitar in hand, to a performance where i
hope this seed will germinate and flower into a truly magical
experience for myself, my musical compatriot, and the audience . . .

czhang23@aol.com a ï¿½crit :

> ...and somewhat like a cross 'twixt a long
> board zither (i.e. koto, qin, kayagum), tambura, a hammered/bowed dulcimer
> and a viola d'amore.
> I am trying to figure out a do-able microtonal/multi-timbral tuning
> system for this instrument. So far I have mapped out a few ratios from an
> JI-adapted 7-tone Pelog scale in/to a basic inverted Japanese nonatonic
> scale-mode called _Taishikicho_- a poetically called a mode of "rock boxes."

Sounds like a good idea to invert a Japanese scale into a Pelog - is that what you do ?
and how is it going in JI ratios ?

> I am adding additional ratios from _certain_ other scale-tuning systems
> (i.e. Indian shruti, Pythagorean Arabic, Gothic, Pythagorean-mediant 13-limit,...

What are "Gothic" scales supposed to be ? I am curious -

> tuning and non-octave odd-prime 13-limit tuning) around these "nuclear"
> pitches to make it much more chromatic and enharmonic, more "stellated",
> "bifurcated." Tentatively, I am calling it the WabiSabi /Luciferinnebula
> Scale.

With two sides probably, like 7 and 225 ? - or 39 and 625 ?? Tell us some more ! -

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...> wrote:
> czhang23@a... a écrit :
>
> > ...and somewhat like a cross 'twixt a long
> > board zither (i.e. koto, qin, kayagum), tambura, a hammered/bowed
dulcimer
> > and a viola d'amore.
> > I am trying to figure out a do-able microtonal/multi-timbral
tuning
> > system for this instrument. So far I have mapped out a few ratios
from an
> > JI-adapted 7-tone Pelog scale in/to a basic inverted Japanese
nonatonic
> > scale-mode called _Taishikicho_- a poetically called a mode
of "rock boxes."
>
> Sounds like a good idea to invert a Japanese scale into a Pelog -
is that what you do ?
> and how is it going in JI ratios ?

sorry to interrupt, but personally, i view japanese and pelog scales
as closely related -- in fact, if you take a japanese scale and
temper out the 135:128, you pretty much get a pelog scale. one result
is that the tritone in the japanese scale becomes an acceptable
perfect fifth or perfect fourth in pelog, with all the other fifths
and fourths being demoted from just to merely acceptable as well. no
ratios of 7 or higher are implied in either tuning, in my opinion.

on 6/5/03 4:15 am, czhang23@aol.com at czhang23@aol.com wrote:

>
> I am a mostly-self-taught percussionist who doesn't feel limited to the
> just so-call "Kitchen Sink Plus Department." Ferinstanz, I am keen on making
> a cello-range tube-zither "TamburDrone" - an instrument less than a Harmonic
> Canon, but more than a monochord and somewhat like a cross 'twixt a long
> board zither (i.e. koto, qin, kayagum), tambura, a hammered/bowed dulcimer
> and a viola d'amore.
> I am trying to figure out a do-able microtonal/multi-timbral tuning
> system for this instrument. So far I have mapped out a few ratios from an
> JI-adapted 7-tone Pelog scale in/to a basic inverted Japanese nonatonic
> scale-mode called _Taishikicho_- a poetically called a mode of "rock boxes."
> I am adding additional ratios from _certain_ other scale-tuning systems
> (i.e. Indian shruti, Pythagorean Arabic, Gothic, Pythagorean-mediant 13-limit
> tuning and non-octave odd-prime 13-limit tuning) around these "nuclear"
> pitches to make it much more chromatic and enharmonic, more "stellated",
> "bifurcated." Tentatively, I am calling it the WabiSabi /Luciferinnebula
> Scale.

This sounds interesting. Have you any sketches of this proposed new
instrument? I'm making four bowed koto/zithers just now and am trying to
design the bridges. They will act as a quartet in my wee orchestra, tuned to
four hexanies, or two overlapping dekanies or the full Eikosany, depending
on whether I make them with 5 or 6 strings.

So I'm fascinated by your project.

Regards
a.m.

Dear Zhang:

Do you have any examples of your music to share with us?

Gabor

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