Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Evidence, Part I-[tuning] Re: Werckmeister, Schnitger Buxtehude etc.

It has been great fun to sift through Ibo Ortgies' sparring on Baroque music.
I have tried to stay on topic and have had to make 2 parts for a response.
Ibo kindly allows me to finish up on the topics he has contended with. He
wrote last:

Ibo: Hi Johnny and all
this my last statement on this matter here
I ask the list to judge everyone for himself from the arguments
exchanged here.

From my side the discussion is closed, since Johnny Reinhard
doesn't present any evidence to support his case.

JR: And so I now have the opportunity to shed more light on the Bach research
I have become involved with, along with my other microtonal activities.

Ibo: At the end of this letter I say
I have better things to do than to keep up this until now useless
discussion - I'll turn back to scientific research on temperament
practice.

Best
Ibo Ortgies

--------------

JR: And now Part I of Evidence.

Ibo: In this case - Werckmeister for example:
He designed his (today) best known temperament (W III) with
1/4-p.comma division not as the one and only temperament,
gernerally to be used, but for the irregular modes or the "Genus
Chromaticum".

JR: And since Bach used all 12 notes in so many of his compositions, he
required "Genus Chromaticum." This is especially true for organists notable
for improvisation. The inflexibility of organ tuning mitigates for a single
organ tuning, and Werckmeister III is singularly admirable. Any organ
composition that used an Ab is likely to be well-tempered since G# was the
more usual key allocation in meantone.

Ibo: I appreciate your musicianship. But what exactly do you need the
ttravels then for, if you already from your excellence as musician
believe to be able to draw conclusions about the history of
temperament practice?

JR: You are putting words into my mouth (yech). I draw no conclusions by
making musical performances alone. At best, they are the satisfactory result
of much research. If you would be a bit patient, I will respond to your
points, while making a few of my own.

Ibo: As a musician I believe, that we can't get enough histoorical
information - and then make an artistic decision when it comes to
the performance. Usually we have only a fraction of the knowledge
of a specific historic situation or historic condition. It can't
be expressed in numbers, but as a magnitude or proportion, one
reasonably will not exceed more than 1% of the total necessary
knowledge. This means that in the magnitude of 99 % "modern"
thoughts, prejudices and preferences will come into any
performance, making any performance automatically a modern
performance.

JR: That is a bleak assessment in my judgment. Using numbers allows for
accuracy to 1200 cents to the octave. This puts all temperaments on the same
table, for easy cross examination. The music is the form that results, and
is the ultimate reason for your research.

Ibo: At the same time this makes performance always "artistic", beyond
science or scientific consideration. In other words: I don't want
to hear experiments (which I'm interested as scientist), but I'm
interested in the artistic result (as musician, music lover).

JR: Like you, I don't want to hear experiments. For example, I have always
resisted the fast comparison of the same piece being performed in competing
tunings. However, there is science is the music of Bach, as well.

For example, an analysis of the Brandenburg Concerti opening melodic
intervals reveals that Bach used four semitones as an opening interval in
four different Concerti. In each instance, the specific interval used is a
semitone of 108 cents, the largest of four different sizes of semitone in
Werckmeister III. It makes musical sense to use only the largest semitone
for the opening melodic motive. This is too much for chance.
There are 39 distinct melodic intervals in Werckmeister III and this is
clearly more important to the musician than to the musicologist.

Ibo: But from that small and vague performance basis a valid judgment
or an evaluation of a previous historical situation cannot be
drawn. Not even for temperaments.

JR: This is just your opinion. Live performance further informs. It is part
of the process, a necessary part, in my opinion.

Ibo: Personal preferences for example for a certain temperament are by
definition no evidence - except for the individual, who brings it
forward.

JR: The above is meaningless in regard to my situation. You cannot be blamed
for not knowing what my involvement in music has been.

Ibo: I think it is necessary to "defend" HIP "against its devotees" - by
collecting and constantly widening knowledge. We don't need believers in the
field who don't want to see evidence contradicting them, but we need
knowledgeable people who [challenge? JR].

JR: I above wholeheartedly with the above statement.

Ibo: Temperament is one field of building historical myths, others are
also fields of mixing individual (historical and modern)
preferences to find explanatory systems, which please us so much
nowadays: "key characteristics", "rhetorics" and "affects" - and
tempi.

JR: Sorry to contradict, but history is already practically all-myth
regarding temperament. "Bach invented equal temperament" is widely believed
throughout history, and it is a myth.
Ø while making one of my travels. His wife Vertrude

Ibo: Is really 'Vertrude' her name?

JR: Technically, it MUST be Gertrude, but he always said it like it was with
a "V".
Ø JR: Wasn't it his pride to write things up because his
> temperament was chosen? Why else?

Ibo: Yes of course, because as he himself stated in print 1697, that
the organ builders are so stubborn and don't follow his new
temperament suggestions. Which he by the way constantly changed,
added, admitted change, corrections tec. from book to book which
he published.

JR: Perhaps, they were not following his suggestions enough?
While the fact that he kept changing through corrections and additions
underscores the fact that W. always referred his readers back to Musicalische
Temperatur of 1691 for further temperament detail.

> JR: The above is true in Holland, yes: but not Thuringia.

Ibo: What are your statistics for Thuringia. You just correctly stated
that the area is crowded with churches in many smaller and greater
places. Of how many exactly do you have any evidence about the
status of the organ in Bach's lifetime 1685-1750?

JR: My understanding is that organs cannot retain their tuning for over 300
years. Further, many records regarding church organs have been destroyed as
a result of war. As the nomenclature for discussing tuning is so flexible,
and has been poorly translated previously to both scholars and musicians, a
new look on tuning practice for the late Baroque is warranted.
Ø Before he was to publish in Quedlinburg he travelledâ€¦.even
> to Amsterdam.

Ibo: No,
at least if you didn't find evidence for that in some archive -
that would be really exciting!

JR: I noticed that Werckmeister used Dutch terms in some of his writing.
Particularly, I recall the Dutch word for the comma. (Frau Lichtwitz
translated trough different Werckmeister books.) The Dutch trip is now
relegated to a hunch. It would make sense for a young Werckmeister to check
out the environs of Sweelink.
Ø He was a Johnny
> Appleseed of tuning ideas he had called a natural consequence
> of Praetorian quarter-comma meantone. He doesn't claim to
> originate the idea, not does he name it.

Ibo: Which idea? Meantone -temperament? He couldn't claim that, since
it was in use before Praetorius 1619, and before Zqarlino's
description in 1571 and before Pietro A(a)ron and before Ramis de
Parejas practical description in 1482.

JR: This is what concerns me: the idea is a circular well-temperament. Why
do you characterize Werckmeister about making pompous claims?
Werckmeister calls meantone-temperament "Praetorian tuning" with all possible
respect to Praetorious. Though this was listed "second" as Werckmeister II,
it is just a category of common tuning…though of an earlier tradition (or
generation).

Ø In fact we don't have a face to put on him.

Ibo: [Probably people today would think it to be funny, too, like his
language]

JR: I wouldn't. J

>>The organ builder Wender of Muhlhausen preferred to use
>>Werckmeister's tuning.

Ibo: No, bad methods occur in any science - actually often they can't
be considered to be science, but novel writing.

JR: I guess the question, then, is why did Bach-archiv publish such bad
musicology, then?
> There was no one before Werckmeister to present a tuning
> that would do what was musically necessary.

Ibo: Take the differenciating view of the Bremen cDom (cathedral)
organist Grave who advocated 1755 for keeping the meantone
temperament in the (Schnitger)-organ, because it is better for the
liturgical function the organ, though he says that he would
prefer ET for accompanying the ensemble music (a pattern of
argument, which we find in Mattheson's and other writer's
publications already around 1730). However he states, that the
ensemble music is not as important issue in his church, so the
"Praetorian" temperament should be kept. The organ was retuned 20
years later - direct to ET! (A bunch of similar cases and
arguments are known to me).

JR: This is an interesting example. As a performer, it is at the opposite
end of what music means. Grave would not use the organ with
instrumentalists. That's a good, specific example. It may be the exception
that proves the rule: that organs more often DO play with instrumentalists.
And that this is an important function.

Ibo: How would we "characterize" Mr. Grave:
- "conservative" because he let's the meantone temperament
stay in the organ, since it serves well the required
or recognized function (in the liturgy)
- "progressive" as he propses equal temperament for ensemble
music accompaniment
- "moderate", "opportunistic" or "functional" as he judges in
general from the function of the organ

JR: I would say conservative, non-progressive (because he likely never heard
exact equal temperament…s. Jorgensen), and "matter-of-fact" (not part of your
choices.
Ø In some likelihood, Bach's uncle Johann Christoph Bach
> may have had one of those "bumps" into the 3-year younger
> Werckmeister

JR: JC Bach (uncle) frequented Muhlhausen at a time when Werckmeister was
studying latin in Nordhausen, (born in just outside, Benneckenstein). By
driving to Nordhausen I got a good sense of the distances. Muhlhausen is
quite next to Nordhausen. How could these two miss meeting each other?

Ø JR: Have you never heard the difference between
> equal tempered Buxtehude and Werckmeister III tuned
> Buxtehude? It is night and day.

Ibo: Hear hear! I tuned these myself frequently, and with some pieces
W III gives a fine result, with others even ET works, others again
don't reject a Vallotti ... Some work in every surrounding.

JR: Here we have a problem. I don't care if ET works. Nor could I entertain
Valotti (which appears after Bach died) for Buxtehude. This is slipshod, and
unnecessary. As a composer, I believe a composer has a more precise image in
the mind than many a player can render under the best of circumstances. I
think it is important that the tuning basis of a composer be honored. Hence,
the drive to determine tunings for each composer.

Ibo: Plus, the voicing, registration and the room can do incredible
much to lead astray even experiencesd people. So what could we gain from our
today's listening experience - where we already do not agree. How would you
know that Buxtehude or Werckmeister would agree to your personal prefeerence,
and not to mine?

JR: I could convince you if you made a visit to my apartment in New York. I
would play examples and help you recognize the appropriateness of
Werckmeister's tuning to Buxtehude and how ET fails the composer utterly in
comparison.

> It is important to point out that every single book
> Werckmeister published through 1707

Ibo: He died in 1706

JR: Yes, but his last book was published posthumously by his children in
order to gain some much needed income.

> refers back to his 1691 publication (which was sold in Leipzig
> and Frankfurt). He never failed to favor purer intervals in diatonic
> keys.

Ibo: Yes as he says about ET that he thinks is a good choice, too!
But he admits that he himself would like to keep some thirds
slightly better.

JR: You don't see the good politics here? More significant, he continued to
endorse his own ideas.

> Incidentally, I just conducted "Where is the newborn
> king of the Jews" in Werckmeister III.

Ibo: The temperament of the continuo doesn't play a larger role:
See my contribution on the harpsichord list
"temperament - ensemble intonation"
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0301&L=hpschd-l&P=R3618

JR: I couldn't disagree more. But of course, I understand your
misunderstanding.
(Look, I'm sorry to appear arrogant. But I hope you realize as I do that we
are really only poking a bit of fun at each other in a polemical manner.)

I read your letters and generally enjoyed them. To the matters we have been
addressing, I must disagree with this one:

Ibo (from Harpsichord List) "WTs force the singer/player to a much more
difficult to control intonation, especially in the remote keys (where WTs are
worse than ET)."

JR: What is more accurate is that Werckmeister III is a case of controlled
expression. Where a modern musician might use an elastic intonation,
Werckmeister III require head on intonation (in other words, no sliding below
or above notes). The harpsichord becomes gold. Every string players huddles
by it to get the exact intonation throughout the concert.

When everyone know ET, it doesn't matter much whether you can hear the
harpsichord in a continuo. But when in W III, string players find it vital.
Your lower expectations will yield lesser results, I'm afraid.

Ibo: But they can't consistently be performed by free intonating musicians as
exact to the pitches created by the well-temperament in a
fixed-pitch-instrument like a keyboard instrument.

JR: Yes they can. One way is to treat WIII as a 12 note (or less) blues
scale. Some players actually like the cents values due to their training,
others would run away from them. But all love to get near the harpsichord.
(I've already described the use of tape.) Trumpets, no problem so far (with
its use of a minor third worth of interval bandwidth).

Ibo: And the effect of any temperament is and should be masked by the
continuo-group, which to this aim should consist of several
additional bass instruments, like a Viollone, Gamba or caello,
Dulcian or Fagotto, etc. In this way it is better guaranteed,
that the disturbing impure chords* from the keyboard instruments
will not destroy the pure flexible intonation required from the
non-continuo-players (and singers)

JR: There is nothing impure to mask. Impurity based on later concepts of
vertical simultanaities do not apply to strict counterpoint. These are
melodies that need further distinguishing, which Werckmeister III is ideally
suited to accomplish. When music becomes more chordal, only then do your
ideas of "better" and "worse" make any sense. In the Middle Ages, cycle of
fifth tuning was popular in Germany. Why do you penalize the further keys as
"so bad" when they were part of folk music?
Ø I had to announce to the
> audience that it is quite interesting that the identifying
> name of Werckmeister with tuning was so conservative
> in his actual use of pitch relationships.

Ibo: I don't grasp the story. If your singers and players would have
performed in the way descrived by numerous authors of the 17 and
18th century, your audience should not be able to detect what
temperament the keybaord instrument has, as the other musicians
should play as pure as possible (above the lowest sooounding note)
and the rest of the continuo should be loud enough to mask the bad
chords..

JR: Yes, I read your article. But I believe you are flat out wrong here. I
know you don't like reading this from me. ;) sorry, but for reasons of music
and historical honesty and the integrity of this list, I have to tell you…it
'aint so.

There are no bad chords in C Major in W III so nothing to mask. Players
played everything exactly as it is tuned on the harpsichord. Where you would
mask, we would unveil.

Ø Ibo: Kuhnau worked in Leipzig, - around 1700 this was
> scarcely related to the - quite different - organ building
> practice of Northern Germany which I'm researching.

> JR: Maybe, but Kuhnau had the same basic interests as
> Werckmeisterâ€¦and they were likely friends as well.

Ibo: Obviously all were "friends" who lived in the same time.
I give up on this part. I am sorry: If you can't prove something,
then don't think that by repeting it, it will get a better likeliness.

JR: This information was from Rudiger Pheifer, President of the Werckmeister
Society. We met together in Wolfenbeutel. This tuning list allows me to
share ideas a bit more freely than usually done in an academic journal.

Ibo: Whether someone is biased or not, has to be discussed by evidence.
It is about making the case. Take the "facts" check and double
check them, explain their prerequiites, contradictions, prove as
much as possile their point or disprove it. It has nothing to do
with like or dislike.

JR: Philosophically, I disagree with you. We are all biased. Some of us
admit them to ourselves, some admit them publicly. It is best to confront
them, for they are present.
Ø JR: We play accurate to the cent whenever possible, at
> least in the mind.

Ibo: If that is "accurate" as your arguments in this discussion, then
the imagination of good intonation happened probably only in the
minds.

JR: This was not a joke. The music we perform on the American Festival of
Microtonal Music is not like usual performances. When I said "in the minds"
it meant that we hear the intonation crystally clear in the mind before we
play them. This is the same process for adjusting the thirds and fifths to
an already sounding bass tone, only it works for WIII as well. I am not sure
it would work for every WT as well. While WIII has 39 melodic intervals, W
IV-VI all have even more intervals.

Ø I do not hear that way,

Ibo: That's a big problem. A piece of good advice to solve that
problem, which partly spoils this whole discussion:
See to educate your ear as much as possible

JR: This is really funny. (What's the icon for belly laugh?)

Ibo: I have trained and exercised that for years and I hope such
training will help you to improve your judgment in the future, so
that you to get away from the prejudices, which conceal the
historical evidence to you. You'll find a fascinating world of
intonation and still can - like I do - keep some other fine
prejudices for the non scientific part of our life.

JR: …still chuckling…

Ø nor do I suspect Buxtehude did.

Ibo: You suspect to much.
Scientific reasoning is very much …In science, however, it can only be
stated, that nothing safe is known.

JR: Ibo, this is not a science in the usual sense. If you follow that
reasoning blindly, you will miss important clues. "Nothing safe is known"
doesn't do it. It is not acceptable. It does not compute. It is false, and
I am earnestly attempting to get through to you that you are worshipping at a
false god.

> Nor did Bach.

Ibo: Here the above suspicion ""I suspect Buxtehude did" turned already
in a factual statement "Bach did".

JR: Thanks for noticing. Yes, after writing a self-publishing my Masters
thesis on Bachs Tuning (which did not make any conclusions), I spent over 2
decades doing further research of all kinds. BTW, I trained in
Ethnomusicology which is part of my interest in visiting each of the Bach
cities. There are techniques, strategies, and methodologies involved that
may be new even to you!
Ø Werckmeister is ideal in every way to fit the missing link
> that is Thuringia.

Ibo: Well, if you think he is ideal, than make the case - your belief
is no proof.

JR: I hope this all helps.

Ø JR: Which is why a theologian like Werckmeister

Ibo: Now you make him to something he never was: a theologian. (Read his
biography in the literature on Werckmeister, s. above).
No, he was no scientist on (christian) religion, but "only" a believer in his
God, and sometimes also argued from these his preferences and beliefs. Sounds
by now familiar that you bring him into that context.

JR: According to the Grove Dictionary on Music and Musicians citation on
Werckmeister, paragraph 2 (p. 286):

2. WORKS. "Though not educated at a university, Werckmeister was widely read
in classical as well as contemporary literature on theology, mathematics,
philosophy and music." Later, "From these writings [his own] he emerges as a
profoundly religious thinker." And his books contain religious allegory
prominently. It was the Bishop of Wolfenbeutel who gave all of Praetorious'
writings to Werckmeister in Halberstadt, long after Praetorious had died. I
believe this is fair reason for me to have called Werckmeister a theologian.
In his day he was more often considered a mathematician (in some circles).
To others, he's an organ diagnostician. Me, I admire his publishing efforts.

>> Ibo: Today, tape is may be a solution - But, contradicting is, that I
>> have not seen any good baroque oboe player doing something like
>> that to his instrument.

> JR: How about Bram Kreeftmeijer of Arnhem. He was my oboist for
> Brandenburg Concerto #2â€¦and he used scotch tape that I procured.

>> Ibo: And what kind of tape would you suggest
>> for the practice back then? I thought it is an invention of the
>> 20th century?

Ibo: OK, But what does Mhr. Kreeftmmeijer may be useful tape-strangling of a
modern oboe for your recent concert have to do with
Werckmeister's temperament, and whether it was actually applied in
which organ.

JR: "Strangling" is an interesting characterization, maybe even bias. I hope
it is not more important for you to be right in these arguments than the
honest understanding and transmittal of the music of Bach and the music of
the organ.

Actually, Bram Kraftmeijer (please note only a single letter "m" for the
analy retentive) is principle oboist of the Gelders Orchestra of Arnhem in
Nederland, and called last evening. I mentioned that he is my best example
of someone who uses my scotch tape tuning method. He informs me that his
section has now used tape now to make them perfectly in tune on some
troublesome intervals.

Ibo: No historical reports confirm
that beewax-practice in order to reach different interval sizes of
well-temperaments. On the contrary, oboes (like all woodwinds)
were especially required by 18th autors to play as pure as
possible (to the continuo, as described above). The same authors
might advocate in the same sources use of well-temperaments or
even ET in te accompanying keyboard instruments

JR: Dear Ibo, what about seeing music history as a recorder player, instead
of exclusively like a keyboardist. We know about beeswax. And what authors
pray tell? Or would this conflict with an intention to have said all to be
said on the matter?

My dear friend (unless you object to my use of the word "friend"), you have a
belief system which you are trying to defend, even as you say that I have a
system of belief based on personal aesthetic preferences.

If you could imagine that there were many churches in
Thuringia/Anhalt-Sachsen/Saxon areas with keyboards in Werckmeister III, and
that they had enough Bachs in them to prepare them for a master like J.S. to
tickle the keys, than you can further imagine that he would take special care
with the tuning. He did, based on my research. (please, be patient)
Ø JR: We certainly have different eyes. I see a whole
> page on Werckmeister and much less on most any
> other personage.

Ibo: I think physically our eyes are rather alike - if you only take
away your persona-preference-bias-glasses ...
Walther lists on "the whole page" on Werckmeister the latter's
publications, yes.
But he doesn't describe any of W.'s temperaments. Neither does he
do so for any other author on temperament!

JR: Yes, Walther shows bias. He does not list Handel, for example. The
reason for not listing a specific temperament for Werckmeister is out of
respect to Werckmeister. If Werckmeister was not going to insist on a
particular tuning, it would not be for Walther to do so. As well, if
everyone knew that Werckmeister's tuning was really what we now call W III,
fully adopted by the Bach family. Remember the most important Bach in Erfurt
was "Johann Bach" from earlier generations. And in Gera, and Arnstadt, and in
….the list goes on. Bachs were everywhere. And Werckmeister III is their
own. And if you could open up your imagination a bit, you could learn to
like it.

Ibo: really, its: Schoof!
more recent Buxtehude album, I got it as a personal gift from him ...

> is that it is a different piece than its equal tempered
> manifestations.
> Sequences have a life that are intended for subtle
> comparison, totally lost in ET.
> People cry at the significant difference.

Hmm - I regret that. But may be transposition to other keys might
help away from that crying state.

JR: Transposition changes sentiment, it is true, for a WT. However, her
crying was a blessed thing, and she is most happy for the experience. In
fact, she loved Schoof's performance.

TO BE CONTINUED IN PART II

Evidence, Part I-[tuning] Re: Werckmeister, Schnitger Buxtehude etc.

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