musical precedent for treating D-A as a dissonance

hi paul,

i happened to see this just now while searching
for something else, and was wondering if you ever
got a response to it? i didn't see one.

/tuning/topicId_28166.html#28188

> From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:46 pm
> Subject: Re: 3/14 comma meantone (Riccati)
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., genewardsmith@j... wrote:
>
> > I calculated the least squares approximation with
> > generators corresponding to the 7 and 12 ets which
> > keeps octaves exact and which optimizes by the tunings
> > for the classic JI diatonic scale,
> > 1-9/8-5/4-4/3-3/2-5/3-15/8-(2).
>
> In my opinion, this scale is completely unrelated to
> actual musical usage of the diatonic scale. There's no
> musical precedent for treating D-A as a dissonance or
> as any different from the other fifths.

ah, but that's not true!

Simon Sechter, the seminal Viennese theorist of the
early-mid 1800s, taught that (where C=1/1) the D:A "5th"
was indeed the 40:27 ratio of ~680 cents, and that it
should be treated as a dissonance which demanded resolution.

this was picked up by Bruckner, and taught at the
University of Vienna until his death in 1896.
and he taught a *lot* of students there, including Mahler.

a while back, Ibo Ortgies posted to this list something
about Bruckner's teaching on this.

REFERENCE:

Wason, Robert W.
_Viennese Harmonic Theory
from Albrechtsberger to Schenker and Schoenberg_
(Studies in Musicology, No 80)
Publisher: Umi Research Pr; (June 1985)
ISBN: 0835719553

Hi, Monz,

>Simon Sechter, the seminal Viennese theorist of the
>early-mid 1800s, taught that (where C=1/1) the D:A "5th"
>was indeed the 40:27 ratio of ~680 cents, and that it
>should be treated as a dissonance which demanded resolution.

>this was picked up by Bruckner, and taught at the
>University of Vienna until his death in 1896.
>and he taught a *lot* of students there, including Mahler.

>a while back, Ibo Ortgies posted to this list something
>about Bruckner's teaching on this.

I also said something to this effect on the list a year or so ago and was roundly trounced for harboring such an outlandish idea.

Thanks,

Kyle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi paul,
>
>
>
> i happened to see this just now while searching
> for something else, and was wondering if you ever
> got a response to it? i didn't see one.
>
>
> /tuning/topicId_28166.html#28188
>
>
> > From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> > Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:46 pm
> > Subject: Re: 3/14 comma meantone (Riccati)
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@y..., genewardsmith@j... wrote:
> >
> > > I calculated the least squares approximation with
> > > generators corresponding to the 7 and 12 ets which
> > > keeps octaves exact and which optimizes by the tunings
> > > for the classic JI diatonic scale,
> > > 1-9/8-5/4-4/3-3/2-5/3-15/8-(2).
> >
> > In my opinion, this scale is completely unrelated to
> > actual musical usage of the diatonic scale. There's no
> > musical precedent for treating D-A as a dissonance or
> > as any different from the other fifths.
>
>
>
> ah, but that's not true!
>
> Simon Sechter, the seminal Viennese theorist of the
> early-mid 1800s, taught that (where C=1/1) the D:A "5th"
> was indeed the 40:27 ratio of ~680 cents, and that it
> should be treated as a dissonance which demanded resolution.
>
> this was picked up by Bruckner, and taught at the
> University of Vienna until his death in 1896.
> and he taught a *lot* of students there, including Mahler.
>
> a while back, Ibo Ortgies posted to this list something
> about Bruckner's teaching on this.
>
>
>
> REFERENCE:
>
> Wason, Robert W.
> _Viennese Harmonic Theory
> from Albrechtsberger to Schenker and Schoenberg_
> (Studies in Musicology, No 80)
> Publisher: Umi Research Pr; (June 1985)
> ISBN: 0835719553

i've mentioned bruckner in this regard before, and of course you
could mention zarlino and schoenberg and may others, but is this
really your case for significant *musical* precedent? your evidence
here is not exactly overwhelming.