lute tuning (was: Harmonics and...)

hi Gene and Alison,

as i wrote in the first place, lutes and
other fretted strings most usually had their
frets placed according to 12edo.

however, there is one *big* exception:
John Dowland's rational well-temperament.
i have a webpage all about it, and gave a
presentation on it in Italy on that fateful
day, 9/11/2001.

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/fngrbds/dowland/dowland.htm

Dowland was extremely popular in his day, as
both composer and lutenist, and my guess would
be that once it was published, his unusual tuning
probably became quite popular.

-monz

> From: "Alison Monteith" <alison.monteith3@which.net>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 7:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Harmonics and Their Equal Tempered Frequencies
>
>
> on 30/3/03 1:55 am, Gene Ward Smith at gwsmith@svpal.org wrote:
>
> > > [me, monz:]
> > > it should also be noted that 12edo was favored as
> > > the tuning for fretted instruments (cheifly the lute)
> > > from c. 1600.
> >
> > [Gene:]
> > I was just listening to music for lute, 1500-1550. Any idea how that
> > is authentically tuned?
>
> [Alison:]
> Most of my repertoire for lute falls into this period, for example the
> vihuelistas and Francesco da Milano. The scholars agree that 12 tet was
the
> tuning of the day, and I'm quite happy to go along with this.
>
> However, I was playing yesterday afternoon at an Early Music event and met
> an instrument maker who told me he had attended an early music recital
> recently, a German ensemble I think.
>
> The theorbo (a long necked lute with sympathetic strings) player had some
> system of secondary frets on the neck behind the main frets. My impression
> was of a version of the type of neck that Dave Beardsley and other JI
> guitarists might use. He also told me that the repertoire was 16th
century.
> This would suggest either a non-12 tuning or perhaps simply microtonal
> inflections or even ornaments. I do know that the current crop of young
> early music specialists are delving into Arabic influences and that might
be
> a factor as well. I'll try to get more details.
>
> Regards
> a.m.

> From: "monz" <monz@attglobal.net>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 9:59 AM
> Subject: [tuning] lute tuning (was: Harmonics and...)
>
>

> hi Gene and Alison,
>
>
>
> as i wrote in the first place, lutes and
> other fretted strings most usually had their
> frets placed according to 12edo.

oops, my bad. i see up re-reading your post that
you were specifically inquiring about the late 1500s.

i believe there were many different proposals for
lute tuning, and even after 1600 Mersenne gives
several JI lute tunings.

here's a webpage i found which suggests that
meantone was the predominant lute fretting of
the late 1500s:

http://www.luteshop.fsnet.co.uk/tuning.htm

... altho i wouldn't be so quick to agree that
Dowland's tuning "approximated 1/6-comma meantone".
(for further reference, i have webpages about both tunings.)

my point was that as early as c.1590 or so
12edo was being advocated as the best tuning for
fretted strings, notably by Vincenzo Galilei,
the father of Galileo ... he actually used a
rational temperament where each fret and semitone
was measured as 18:17.

(use "Expand Messages" to view properly on Yahoo site)

Vincenzo Galilei's lute fretting

note fret measurement ~cents ~cents error from 12edo
C (18/17)^0 0 0
C#/Db (18/17)^1 98.95459223 -1.0
D (18/17)^2 197.9091845 -2.1
D#/Eb (18/17)^3 296.8637767 -3.1
E (18/17)^4 395.8183689 -4.2
F (18/17)^5 494.7729612 -5.2
F#/Gb (18/17)^6 593.7275534 -6.3
G (18/17)^7 692.6821456 -7.3
G#/Ab (18/17)^8 791.6367378 -8.4
A (18/17)^9 890.5913301 -9.4
A#/Bb (18/17)^10 989.5459223 -10.5
B (18/17)^11 1088.500515 -11.5
C (18/17)^12 1187.455107 -12.5

notice that this results in a non-8ve tuning
if it's carried out beyond 12 notes.

-monz

monz wrote:

>my point was that as early as c.1590 or so
>12edo was being advocated as the best tuning for
>fretted strings, notably by Vincenzo Galilei,
>the father of Galileo ... he actually used a
>rational temperament where each fret and semitone
>was measured as 18:17.
> >
Vicentino said back in 1555 that "the bowed viol and lute ... have been played with the divison of equal semitones." He then suggests 31 frets to the octave as an alternative.

Graham

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> as i wrote in the first place, lutes and
> other fretted strings most usually had their
> frets placed according to 12edo.
>
> however, there is one *big* exception:

there's an even bigger exception: meantone fretting.

> John Dowland's rational well-temperament.

hmm . . . why do you call it a well-temperament? it doesn't have
12 pitches.