project: understanding the music

All;

I find myself completely ignorant of the music of the mid-east
and India. This comes as a surprise to me, since this music
has a place in my heart equal to that of any music I've ever
experienced.

So, I'd like to propose a course-grained survey of the tunings
of North & South India, Persia/Iran/?Iraq?, Armenia/Georgia,
Egypt, and of the Semetic, Kurdish and Ottoman traditions,
wherever they are/were practiced.

One may question the wisdom of a survey grouping such a
diverse set of musical cultures together. But one may do the
same for discussions of "Western" music, which we seem to have
no problem conducting here. Nevertheless, if we conclude that
no such survey is reasonable, I would call it a success.

What I mean by course-grained is: What *scales* are used, How
are they used (polyphonic?, always with a drone?...), What major
systems of scales exist (maqam, sruti, etc.), What (if any)
historical/geographical relationships exists between them?

What I do *NOT* mean is: Do they use Just Intonation, Could
they use JI, How accurately do they tune? I suggest we avoid
as much as possible debates over the validity of their music
theory, and focus on what we know from practice and hear in
recordings.

Anybody interested? Names that come to mind are: Paul Erlich,
Joe Monzo, John Chalmers, Daniel Wolf, Ara Sarkissian, Kraig
Grady, Johnny Reinhard, Haresh Bakshi, Can Akkoc..... plus
those I'm forgetting, and any new voices!!

-Carl

Carl Lumma wrote :

> All;
> I find myself completely ignorant of the music of the mid-east
> and India. This comes as a surprise to me, since this music
> has a place in my heart equal to that of any music I've ever
> experienced.
> So, I'd like to propose a course-grained survey of the tunings
> of North & South India, Persia/Iran/?Iraq?, Armenia/Georgia,
> Egypt, and of the Semetic, Kurdish and Ottoman traditions,
> wherever they are/were practiced.
> One may question the wisdom of a survey grouping such a
> diverse set of musical cultures together. But one may do the
> same for discussions of "Western" music, which we seem to have
> no problem conducting here. Nevertheless, if we conclude that
> no such survey is reasonable, I would call it a success.
> What I mean by course-grained is: What *scales* are used, How
> are they used (polyphonic?, always with a drone?...), What major
> systems of scales exist (maqam, sruti, etc.), What (if any)
> historical/geographical relationships exists between them?
> What I do *NOT* mean is: Do they use Just Intonation, Could
> they use JI, How accurately do they tune? I suggest we avoid
> as much as possible debates over the validity of their music
> theory, and focus on what we know from practice and hear in
> recordings.
> Anybody interested? Names that come to mind are: Paul Erlich,
> Joe Monzo, John Chalmers, Daniel Wolf, Ara Sarkissian, Kraig
> Grady, Johnny Reinhard, Haresh Bakshi, Can Akkoc..... plus
> those I'm forgetting, and any new voices!!

I am interested. Does anybody has an idea, for example,
of where to find which srutis are used in each raga ?
I can do it by hearing, I mean are they any books or sites
which give that information ?

>I am interested. Does anybody has an idea, for example,
>of where to find which srutis are used in each raga ?
>I can do it by hearing, I mean are they any books or sites
>which give that information ?

I don't, but I noticed "rast", "maqam", and "sruti" don't
have tuning dictionary entries...

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...>
wrote:

> I am interested. Does anybody has an idea, for example,
> of where to find which srutis are used in each raga ?

haresh bakshi has some first-hand knowledge in this area, as
he demonstrated to me in off-list conversations. hope he'll be
available to answer you . . .

> I can do it by hearing, I mean are they any books or sites
> which give that information ?

manuel's list of musical modes

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/modename.html

has this information, but it's compiled from several sources and
so the many differences of opinion that exist are "smoothed out" .
. . i'll let manuel give a fairer assessment . . .

>> I am interested. Does anybody has an idea, for example,
>> of where to find which srutis are used in each raga ?
>
>haresh bakshi has some first-hand knowledge in this area, as
>he demonstrated to me in off-list conversations. hope he'll be
>available to answer you . . .

He's here now, and we were going to lunch today, but alas
schedules didn't permit. I'm hoping he will see his name
in the original post when he gets back to e-mail.

>manuel's list of musical modes
>
>http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/modename.html
>
>has this information, but it's compiled from several sources and
>so the many differences of opinion that exist are "smoothed out" .
>. . i'll let manuel give a fairer assessment . . .

I had forgotten about this! And yes, I would love for Manuel to
chime in!

-Carl

Here are a few links on this topic...

www.leb.net/rma/FAQ

www.medieval.org/music/world.html

www.shira.net/musicintro.htm

www.chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/carnatic_sangeet.html

...comments? Other links?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Here are a few links on this topic...
>
> www.leb.net/rma/FAQ
>
> www.medieval.org/music/world.html
>
> www.shira.net/musicintro.htm
>
>
www.chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/carnatic_sange
et.html
>
> ...comments? Other links?
>
> -Carl

i'll have a look at these soon . . .

(:-P)

To illustrate that Hindustani musicians aren't bothered much
with shruti theories, I've copied an interesting diagram with
intonation measurements from an article by Wim van der Meer,
which is in the bibliography:

/tuning/files/doc/raga1.png
/tuning/files/doc/raga2.png

The shruti modes in the mode list come from a variety of
sources. Generally I have avoided those which had different
definitions in different books.

Manuel

>To illustrate that Hindustani musicians aren't bothered much
>with shruti theories, I've copied an interesting diagram with
>intonation measurements from an article by Wim van der Meer,
>which is in the bibliography:

I don't follow how the charts illustrate this.

>/tuning/files/doc/raga1.png
>/tuning/files/doc/raga2.png

Those should be ...files/docs/...

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >To illustrate that Hindustani musicians aren't bothered much
> >with shruti theories, I've copied an interesting diagram with
> >intonation measurements from an article by Wim van der Meer,
> >which is in the bibliography:
>
> I don't follow how the charts illustrate this.

agreed. as daniel wolf pointed out on the specmus list in regard to
some georgian polyphonic singing example, simple measurement of
performances with scientific instruments is not a good way to go
about this, for various reasons including the performer's sense of
how to approach a pitch, how to depart a pitch, how to ornament and
inflect -- particularly important in hindustani music.

some of the books i've read asked hindustani musicians to tune a set
of 22 strings to the shruti scale. this is a more relevant kind of
test.

>> I don't follow how the charts illustrate this.
>
>agreed. as daniel wolf pointed out on the specmus list in regard to
>some georgian polyphonic singing example, simple measurement of
>performances with scientific instruments is not a good way to go
>about this, for various reasons including the performer's sense of
>how to approach a pitch, how to depart a pitch, how to ornament and
>inflect -- particularly important in hindustani music.

No, I mean I really don't follow it. It shows a range of pitches
for each scale degree? Does it say in shruti theory that...

() The course of a piece shall never stray from the scale
() The scale degrees are fixed points on the pitch continuum

...?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Here are a few links on this topic...
>
> www.leb.net/rma/FAQ
>
> www.medieval.org/music/world.html
>
> www.shira.net/musicintro.htm
>
> www.chandrakantha.com/articles/indian_music/carnatic_sangeet.html
>
> ...comments?

nice!

> Other links?

http://www.anaphoria.com/depos.html
http://www2.hmc.edu/%7Ealves/laras.html
http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html (note the
similarity to a mode of the basic arabic diatonic)
http://www.aunet.org/ramesh/gentle1.html

I notice that trimming the url of one of the links I gave gives a
nice site:

http://www.leb.net/rma/

>>Other links?
>
>http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html

Is this Arabic music? It seems close enough geographically,
but I haven't heard it, so...

>http://www.aunet.org/ramesh/gentle1.html

So this does push, in the end, the idea of a 22-tone 5-limit
JI scale for Indian music.

>http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html
>(note the similarity to a mode of the basic arabic diatonic)

Where is the basic Arabic diatonic given?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> >http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
>
> Is this Arabic music?

nope!

> >http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html
> >(note the similarity to a mode of the basic arabic diatonic)
>
> Where is the basic Arabic diatonic given?
the first one at
http://www.leb.net/rma/modes.html
and of course see manuel's mode list.

>>Where is the basic Arabic diatonic given?
>
>the first one at
>http://www.leb.net/rma/modes.html

Looks like a mode of the diatonic scale, with two degrees
lowered by a funny amount. What is this amount?

>>>http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html
>>>(note the similarity to a mode of the basic arabic diatonic)

Looks like a mode of the diatonic scale with one deg.
raised a funny amount and the other lowered a funny amount.

-Carl

Sorry about the links, here corrected:
/tuning/files/docs/raga1.png
/tuning/files/docs/raga2.png

Paul wrote:
>agreed. as daniel wolf pointed out on the specmus list in regard to
>some georgian polyphonic singing example, simple measurement of
>performances with scientific instruments is not a good way to go
>about this, for various reasons including the performer's sense of
>how to approach a pitch, how to depart a pitch, how to ornament and
>inflect -- particularly important in hindustani music.

As far as I can infer from the article this has been taken care of,
and the lines show the range of steady pitches in a performance.

Carl wrote:
>No, I mean I really don't follow it. It shows a range of pitches
>for each scale degree? Does it say in shruti theory that...
>() The course of a piece shall never stray from the scale
>() The scale degrees are fixed points on the pitch continuum

No, the purpose of the graph was to see if one can significantly
find which shruti is used in different ragas. The conclusion was
hardly. For example in Bhairav the minor second is supposed to be
low and this corresponds. On the other hand in Marva it's believed
to be high (16/15), but the graph shows that it's not.
The major second in Bageshri for example is also not as low as the
theoretical 10/9, 182 cents.

Manuel

Carl wrote:
>Looks like a mode of the diatonic scale, with two degrees
>lowered by a funny amount. What is this amount?

A quarter-tone.

Manuel

>>No, I mean I really don't follow it. It shows a range of pitches
>>for each scale degree? Does it say in shruti theory that...
>>() The course of a piece shall never stray from the scale
>>() The scale degrees are fixed points on the pitch continuum
>
>No, the purpose of the graph was to see if one can significantly
>find which shruti is used in different ragas. The conclusion was
>hardly. For example in Bhairav the minor second is supposed to be
>low and this corresponds. On the other hand in Marva it's believed
>to be high (16/15), but the graph shows that it's not.
>The major second in Bageshri for example is also not as low as the
>theoretical 10/9, 182 cents.

Aha. Still, I notice that no two ragas seem to be identical. Also,
like maqam, don't ragas specify melodic patterns as well as scale
pitches?

I've created a alternate view for the raga charts...

/tuning/files/carl/raga3-small.png

-Carl

>>Looks like a mode of the diatonic scale, with two degrees
>>lowered by a funny amount. What is this amount?
>
>A quarter-tone.
>
>Manuel

If the b with the line through it means "lower by a 1/4-tone",
then the *ascending* version of this scale...

>the first one at
>http://www.leb.net/rma/modes.html

...is indeed the same as the 2nd scale at...

http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >>Looks like a mode of the diatonic scale, with two degrees
> >>lowered by a funny amount. What is this amount?
> >
> >A quarter-tone.
> >
> >Manuel
>
> If the b with the line through it means "lower by a 1/4-tone",
> then the *ascending* version of this scale...
>
> >the first one at
> >http://www.leb.net/rma/modes.html
>
> ...is indeed the same as the 2nd scale at...
>
> http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html
>
> -Carl

yes. if you have as many middle eastern restaurants in your area as i
have in mine, you'll have heard the former (bayati ascending) plenty
of times. also see the ascending version of the second scale (rast),
and both versions of the third scale (sikah). the pattern of 3/4-tone
steps is clearly indicated.

>yes. if you have as many middle eastern restaurants in your area as i
>have in mine,

I'll wager so!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >>No, I mean I really don't follow it. It shows a range of pitches
> >>for each scale degree? Does it say in shruti theory that...
> >>() The course of a piece shall never stray from the scale
> >>() The scale degrees are fixed points on the pitch continuum
> >
> >No, the purpose of the graph was to see if one can significantly
> >find which shruti is used in different ragas. The conclusion was
> >hardly. For example in Bhairav the minor second is supposed to be
> >low and this corresponds. On the other hand in Marva it's believed
> >to be high (16/15), but the graph shows that it's not.
> >The major second in Bageshri for example is also not as low as the
> >theoretical 10/9, 182 cents.
>
> Aha. Still, I notice that no two ragas seem to be identical. Also,
> like maqam, don't ragas specify melodic patterns as well as scale
> pitches?

yes.

> I've created a alternate view for the raga charts...
>
> /tuning/files/carl/raga3-small.png
>
> -Carl

what's up with that low ma in yaman? that doesn't seem to be any of
the srutis . . .

Carl wrote:
>Aha. Still, I notice that no two ragas seem to be identical. Also,
>like maqam, don't ragas specify melodic patterns as well as scale
>pitches?

Right.

>I've created a alternate view for the raga charts...

Good work, I can delete the old files then.

Paul wrote:
>what's up with that low ma in yaman? that doesn't seem to be any of
>the srutis . . .

Another illustration of the point.

Manuel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>>>> I am interested. Does anybody has an idea, for example,
> >> of where to find which srutis are used in each raga ?
> >
> >haresh bakshi has some first-hand knowledge in this area, as
> >he demonstrated to me in off-list conversations. hope he'll be
> >available to answer you . . .
>
> He's here now, and we were going to lunch today, but alas
> schedules didn't permit. I'm hoping he will see his name
> in the original post when he gets back to e-mail. >>>>

Hello ALL, I am sorry to have missed this series of emails.
Here I am -- better late, VERY late, than never! Let me know more.

Thanks,
Haresh.

Helo jacques dudon, I am sorry to have missed the whole link of messages. Can you be more specific, please? We can contact offlist, if you like.

Haresh.