Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning actual listening

Robert Wendel posts:

A short time ago, I posted the 12t-ET offsets requested for two of my
mild well temperaments. There has been a lot of discussion of them
since, but has anyone listened to them, actually played anything
using them?! That for me is the bottom line. I haven't seen any
reference in anyone's posts responding to these temperaments that
anyone on this list has done that. <<

Greetings,
Yes, Bob, I did. I have tried it(your Wendell natural) twice, on my 1893
Steinway A. I did it once with a normal amount of stretch, and then again
with the double octaves beating about 1/2 beat per second,( what I consider a
boatload of stretch). I have waited until I had several pianists play the
tunings and give me their impressions. Being a tuner,not a musician, I don't
know that my personal observations are of much use, (though I will, of
course, sling them in there anyway)
The first player is a long time professional, has arrangements on more
than a few multi-million selling recordings, now plays on the road with a
"country artist",( I use that term liberally, around here). He is well
versed in jazz, not in classical music. He is accustomed to playing a variety
of well-temperaments that I use around town, as well as his own Steinway at
home in a Broadwood's tuning. He played the normal stretch.
His impression was that the piano was almost in equal temperament. He
wondered if I had simply let an ET get "sorta loose". Upon a more careful
investigation, he did notice the harmonic progression, but commented on how
subtle it was, though he did notice that the keys most remote had some edge
on them.
The second player was a totally classical pianist. Her two pianos at home
are kept in a Broadwood's and a Werckmeister, and she is extremely familiar
with how the classical repertoire is affected by temperament. She plays
concerts world-wide. She said she had to look for the contrasts, and that
there really didn't seem to be the kind of clarity in the simple keys that
she had come to expect, that she was sensing more edge than normal in C and
F. Normal for her is a little different than most pianists, due to her use
of the Werckmeister.
A second playing on the more stretched tuning evoked even more of an ET
feel for her, as she said that the tuning sounded more open, but also more
tense.
The third player was a rock and roller, he thought it sounded great! It
was the first time I have ever been told that a temperament had balls.
My personal reaction to this tuning was that the syncronicity is actually
causing the beating to be more pronounced, even when it is slower than ET.
There is enough variation to create the texture that I have come to love, and
that is a good asset in any tuning. The alignment of the m3 and M3 beating
causes their effect to be stronger. This is perhaps because of the added
clarity present when there are not two different rates giving rise to a
tertiary result. I think a side result of this reinforced beating is that
there is less sense of consonance than when the thirds are closer to Just.
The beating is clean and slow, but powerful.
Maybe it is analogous to the vocalist that NEVER turns off the colortura.
After a while, you find yourself hungering for a steady, pure note.
I suspect that the die-hard JI advocates will consider the difference
between a Just M3 and one that is tempered by 5 cents,(approx. 1 bps in the
middle of the keyboard), to be a profound difference, but on the acoustic
piano, in the presence of other tempered intervals (5ths,often), getting the
M3 down to around 1bps is effectively rendering it pure. When you lose that
level of consonance in the temperament, I think you lose a strong component
in creating contrast, i.e. a 14 cent third isn't sensed as brilliant in ET,
but in a Kirnberger, it can be wonderfully ethereal when it appears after a
near Just third,(Beethoven's use of Emaj to introduce the second theme in the
"Waldstein" is a good demo of this. measure 36, I think).
Any temperament gives up something to gain something and the value of
that compromise is dependant on the music played on it. The "Wendell
Natural" is a very nice temperament. It has good balance, and it has a
characteristic 'sound' that its coordinated tempering creates. This is no
small feat! Creating a tuning that produces a characteristic sound is true
art. I think the loss of contrast suffered to create syncronicity works to
its disadvantage with music that depends on the classical tonal soundscape,
but is a very strong asset for music that makes use of dense and harmonically
complex chords, like jazz.
I hope to have time to try the stronger, more robust Wendell tunings in the
future, I suspect they may be stronger candidates for the pre-1900
repertoire. Keep up the great work.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Nashville, Tn.

Ed Foote RPT
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/
www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

Hi, Ed! How's everything in Nashville? I grew up an hour from there
in Clarksville and lived in Nashville the 5 years before moving here
to Iowa at the beginning of 1982. Used to record the Blair String
Quartet for national syndication through NPR when I was working for
WPLN-FM. They really liked my work.

I really appreciate the thorough feedback you've given me. I trust
your tuner's ear over most musicians', especially pianists, since
they typically don't have much of a clue when it comes to precise
intonation of any kind. I find the comments from your clients
experienced with wells informative, however. They are pretty much
along the lines of what I would expect under the conditions you've
described.

I agree that the beating is emphasized by the synchrony. I have
received a fair amount of feedback outside this list from tuners
relaying to me client reaction as well as their own. Most like
the "vibrato" or "tremolo" effect of the synchrony. They feel it
lends a singing quality. I also consistently and repeatedly receive
feedaback from tuner that the pianos sound "louder, more alive", and
tha the "voicing" seems to have greater clarity even though they did
nothing to change the voicing.

I personally find it makes the key color more obvious in a
temperament that is otherwise mild enough to reduce key color to
barely perceptible levels for most clients. Ironically, at the same
time many find that the "harder-edged" harmonies in the remote keys
are ameliorated by the synchrony. I find this true for my own ear
also. I like the key contrast becoming more obvious with a
simultaneous reduction in "grittiness".

Some tuners have been pushing me for a milder temeperament that they
could tune without advising their clients. These tuners tend to have
ears that are very sensitive to the sharper thirds on the more remote
keys. I have one client who is not a tuner, and who had difficulty
hearing the beats at first, even with the synchrony emphasizing them.
However, he complained about +17.9 cents on the thirds in that
particular temperament. His melodic/harmonic sense of what a good
third is was more acute than most pianists I've encountered, in spite
of his initial insensitivity to the beating, which he now notices and
enjoys.

The Natural Well is slightly less sharp at the extreme end, at only
+17.6 cents on Db and Ab. This same client said that Chopin
sounds "way better" in that temperament, however (so similar to the
Natural that I've eliminated it from my intonational "toolkit").

One tuner aslso had a client for whom he tuned my Synchronous ET
Equivalent. It has no significant key contrast, but perfect synchrony
everywhere except on one fifth. He said his client perceied the
synchrony as a "tremolo" and found it "totally lovely". So everything
is a tradeoff depending on who's listening and to what music. What
else is new, right?!

Thank you again for your very thorough and astute feedback, Ed!

Gratefully,

Bob

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, a440a@a... wrote:
> Robert Wendel posts:
>
> A short time ago, I posted the 12t-ET offsets requested for two of
my
> mild well temperaments. There has been a lot of discussion of them
> since, but has anyone listened to them, actually played anything
> using them?! That for me is the bottom line. I haven't seen any
> reference in anyone's posts responding to these temperaments that
> anyone on this list has done that. <<
>
> Greetings,
> Yes, Bob, I did. I have tried it(your Wendell natural) twice,
on my 1893
> Steinway A. I did it once with a normal amount of stretch, and
then again
> with the double octaves beating about 1/2 beat per second,( what I
consider a
> boatload of stretch). I have waited until I had several pianists
play the
> tunings and give me their impressions. Being a tuner,not a
musician, I don't
> know that my personal observations are of much use, (though I will,
of
> course, sling them in there anyway)
> The first player is a long time professional, has arrangements
on more
> than a few multi-million selling recordings, now plays on the road
with a
> "country artist",( I use that term liberally, around here). He is
well
> versed in jazz, not in classical music. He is accustomed to playing
a variety
> of well-temperaments that I use around town, as well as his own
Steinway at
> home in a Broadwood's tuning. He played the normal stretch.
> His impression was that the piano was almost in equal
temperament. He
> wondered if I had simply let an ET get "sorta loose". Upon a more
careful
> investigation, he did notice the harmonic progression, but
commented on how
> subtle it was, though he did notice that the keys most remote had
some edge
> on them.
> The second player was a totally classical pianist. Her two
pianos at home
> are kept in a Broadwood's and a Werckmeister, and she is extremely
familiar
> with how the classical repertoire is affected by temperament. She
plays
> concerts world-wide. She said she had to look for the contrasts,
and that
> there really didn't seem to be the kind of clarity in the simple
keys that
> she had come to expect, that she was sensing more edge than normal
in C and
> F. Normal for her is a little different than most pianists, due to
her use
> of the Werckmeister.
> A second playing on the more stretched tuning evoked even more
of an ET
> feel for her, as she said that the tuning sounded more open, but
also more
> tense.
> The third player was a rock and roller, he thought it sounded
great! It
> was the first time I have ever been told that a temperament had
balls.
> My personal reaction to this tuning was that the syncronicity is
actually
> causing the beating to be more pronounced, even when it is slower
than ET.
> There is enough variation to create the texture that I have come to
love, and
> that is a good asset in any tuning. The alignment of the m3 and M3
beating
> causes their effect to be stronger. This is perhaps because of the
added
> clarity present when there are not two different rates giving rise
to a
> tertiary result. I think a side result of this reinforced beating
is that
> there is less sense of consonance than when the thirds are closer
to Just.
> The beating is clean and slow, but powerful.
> Maybe it is analogous to the vocalist that NEVER turns off the
colortura.
> After a while, you find yourself hungering for a steady, pure
note.
> I suspect that the die-hard JI advocates will consider the
difference
> between a Just M3 and one that is tempered by 5 cents,(approx. 1
bps in the
> middle of the keyboard), to be a profound difference, but on the
acoustic
> piano, in the presence of other tempered intervals (5ths,often),
getting the
> M3 down to around 1bps is effectively rendering it pure. When you
lose that
> level of consonance in the temperament, I think you lose a strong
component
> in creating contrast, i.e. a 14 cent third isn't sensed as
brilliant in ET,
> but in a Kirnberger, it can be wonderfully ethereal when it appears
after a
> near Just third,(Beethoven's use of Emaj to introduce the second
theme in the
> "Waldstein" is a good demo of this. measure 36, I think).
> Any temperament gives up something to gain something and the
value of
> that compromise is dependant on the music played on it.
The "Wendell
> Natural" is a very nice temperament. It has good balance, and it
has a
> characteristic 'sound' that its coordinated tempering creates. This
is no
> small feat! Creating a tuning that produces a characteristic sound
is true
> art. I think the loss of contrast suffered to create syncronicity
works to
> its disadvantage with music that depends on the classical tonal
soundscape,
> but is a very strong asset for music that makes use of dense and
harmonically
> complex chords, like jazz.
> I hope to have time to try the stronger, more robust Wendell
tunings in the
> future, I suspect they may be stronger candidates for the pre-1900
> repertoire. Keep up the great work.
> Regards,
> Ed Foote
> Nashville, Tn.
>
> Ed Foote RPT
> www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/
> www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html

actual listening

🔗a440a@aol.com

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Robert Wendell <rwendell@cangelic.org>