Re: Music notation software for music with quarter-tones, esp. Turkish music?

At 12:29 8/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
>
>>
>>
>> Dear Mr. Annis,
>>
>> In my humble judgement, per my research based on direct measurements made
>> on performances by master musicians, the so called 'scales' in Turkish
music
>> are NOT deterministic/fixed sequences, as in western music.
>
>Boomliter and Creel showed that this was not true of western music either. If
>you measured some cello concertos I heard, you will see the pitch is all over
>the place. The west has the sloppiest intonation.

**********************************************************************

Thanks for saying this explicitly. I, in my limited literacy in music
theory, have never heard such a comment before. Thanks for the reference
as well.

*********************************************************************
>> Therefore, I do not believe a fixed tuning, no matter
>> how intricate, is the answer for Turkish music and possibly other musics.
>
>There is no final answer because the human ear seems to be at home with
small
>shifts in tuning. The question becomes what are you going to do with
>instruments where a singular pitch has to be chosen in the midst of this
smear.
>By the accurate articulation in intonation, the "modulation" via the extended
>reference, will cause a consistency in meaning in these variations.
**********************************************************************

Keyboard or fretted instruments confined to single fixed pitches are
therefore out of question in Turkish music.

**********************************************************************

>> The concept of 'tuning' has to be viewed in a revolutionary manner with a
>> fluid and dynamic structure.
>
> In almost an organic fashion, with the ability to grow over periods of time.
>As a growing thing, it does not discard it s roots. As a mandala, to point
>toward an eternity, via its endless cycle.
>
>-- Kraig Grady
>North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
>http://www.anaphoria.com
>
>
**********************************************************************

Dr. Can Akkoc
Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
1255 Dauphin Street
Mobile, AL 36604
USA

Phone: (334) 441-2126
Fax: (334) 441-3290
Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/

Can Akkoc!
Since Fretted instruments are available, do performers, when having to use
them, find this pitches undesirable!

Can Akkoc wrote:

> From: Can Akkoc <akkoc@asms.net>
>
> At 13:57 8/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >From: "William S. Annis" <wsannis@execpc.com>
> >
> >
> > >From: Can Akkoc <akkoc@asms.net>
> > >
> > >> And a shot into the void of this wonderful mailing-list: has
> > >>anyone used Sethares's "timbral tuning" with Arab or Turkish maqamat
> > >>(or Persian dastgah)? I can't see complex harmonies working well in,
> > >>say, maqam saba` -- I don't have a very robust tolerance for
> > >>dissonance -- but an adjusted timbre might result in some interesting
> > >>experiments: Palestrina meets Simon Shaheen.
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>William S. Annis wsannis@execpc.com
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear Mr. Annis,
> > >
> > >In my humble judgement, per my research based on direct measurements made
> > >on performances by master musicians, the so called 'scales' in Turkish
> music
> > >are NOT deterministic/fixed sequences, as in western music.
> >
> > I agree that a given performer is going to inflect the pitches
> >of a given maqam during performance... just as a modern western
> >violinist does, for expression.
>
> *********************************************************************
>
> We are talking 'inflections' in the order of quarter tones sometimes.
> Such deviations go beyond 'expressions' or 'coloring' and become an
> integral part of a non-deterministic underlying scale with extremely
> intricate structures.
>
> *********************************************************************
>
> > >Instead, they
> > >are distributions or 'smears' along the pitch axis, where a certain 'note'
> > >on the scale associated with the underlying maqam may present itself in a
> > >multitude of pitches depending upon where the music is 'coming from' within
> > >the past few sounds.
> >
> > Agreed. Also, a given note, such as saba, is going to occupy
> >a different region depending on the maqam in which it appears. This
> >is certainly true in Arabic music. This presents a notational
> >nightmare of course, because what gets notated as E-quarter-flat in
> >maqam rast may be different than the E-quarter-flat in maqam bayati.
>
> **********************************************************************
>
> You hit it right on the head. "Region" is the key word here. I presume
> you are referring to what I call 'distributions' or 'smears' in my post.
> However, what I am beginning to observe is that a given 'note', say
> E-quarter-flat, with a certain name "$%^&" varies in pitch not only from
> one maqam to another, but within the course of an improvisation in the
> same maqam. This is why I am suggesting smears on the pitch axis as
> opposed to discrete points, as on fretted or keyboard instruments. The
> mystery is getting deeper and more fascinating in my investigations.
>
> **********************************************************************
>
> >
> > >Therefore, I do not believe a fixed tuning, no matter
> > >how intricate, is the answer for Turkish music and possibly other musics.
> > >The concept of 'tuning' has to be viewed in a revolutionary manner with a
> > >fluid and dynamic structure.
> >
> > It has been argued that fixed tuning/notation isn't so great
> >for recording western music, either. Certainly folk musicians of
> >various sorts complain about notational limitations. But Sibelius is
> >still going to be a great tool, so long as you have the space to make
> >a note someplace that the note saba is the 4-comma version, instead of
> >the 5-comma version in the piece you're working on. (I keep abusing
> >the note saba, and the maqam... I could be wrong on precise details,
> >but I believe I'm making my point clear.)
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> For Turkish music what is needed is a software that can 'think' for
> making decisions in selecting the right pitch for a given note with
> a given name at a given moment during the course of the 'seyir' used
> by the performing musician. The software needs to have 'memory' for
> processing the sounds the music has visited before getting to 'that'
> note in order to determine the correct pitch at 'that' note. If you
> know of such software, please let me know.
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> > Does your research involve investigations into seyir? I've
> >always found that a fascinating approach to structuring melody and
> >improvisation, but there's so little material about it in English.
> >
>
> *****************************************************************
>
> You hit it right on the head again, Thank you. We must be in tune
> on the structures of Turkish music. The issue of 'seyir', roughly
> the 'sequential order of sounds used during the course of an
> improvisation', is taking up just about all my time right now. I
> do not know of any mathematical model, or something close to it,
> published in English or in Turkish. Currently I am grappling with
> this fascinating problem with the hope of constructing a plausible
> mathematical characterization that will sort out uncountably many
> admissible paths from another set of uncountably in-admissble paths
> for each of the 120+ maqams in Turkish music. The kind of mathematic
> needed for such characterization may yet be non-existent!
>
> ******************************************************************
>
> > Hmm... it just occured to me: an investigation the seyir
> >phenomenon wrt to Sethares's research might be interesting, too, but I
> >need to think about that some more...
> >
> >--
> >William S. Annis wsannis@execpc.com
> >Mi parolas Esperanton - La Internacia Lingvo www.esperanto.org
>
> *******************************************************************
>
> Professor Sethares, if you are watching this dialogue, I would be
> very much interested in hearing your response. Please come in!
>
> Dr. Can Akkoc
> Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
> 1255 Dauphin Street
> Mobile, AL 36604
> USA
>
> Phone: (334) 441-2126
> Fax: (334) 441-3290
> Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/
>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

At 16:04 8/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
>
>
>Can Akkoc!
> Since Fretted instruments are available, do performers, when having to
use
>them, find this pitches undesirable!
>
>

Dear Mr. Grady,

Thank you for your inquiry. The main/core instruments of traditional
Turkish music are the Tanbur (long necked string instrument/plucked),
the Ney (end blown cane introduced by the Whirling Dervishes), and
Kemenche (a miniature cello, 3 strings, played in the lap/bowed).
The kemenche has no frets. The ney has finger holes and the sounds
in between are produced by adjusting the lips and/or positioning the
head. The tanbur does have frets, and I believe there are problems. I
have been told about some of the tricks tanbur players have acquired
over the years, such as bending the long neck to achieve 'pitch bend'
during a performance. Some tanbur players keep adding frets as they
mature. There may be other tricks that I am not aware of for producing
the exact pitch the performer may be targeting during a performance.

Other commonly used instruments are the Oud (a close cousin of the Lute)
which is not fretted and possibly the Kanun (lap harp) whish has 26
strings (triplets) where 8-10 little flaps 'bridges' are installed on
each string close to the tuning pegs. During play these bridges are
raised and lowered with the left hand to produce the desired sound.
However, I have seen kanun players use their finger nails to adjust
the effective length of the strings in addition to these flaps.

In summary, the model evolving with me suggests that Turkish music
requires instruments that can produce literally ANY SOUND within the
range of the instrument.

Best regards,
Dr. Can Akkoc
Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
1255 Dauphin Street
Mobile, AL 36604
USA

Phone: (334) 441-2126
Fax: (334) 441-3290
Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/