singing in 12-ed??????????????

>
>that
>tuning in the renaissance was ever very different than 12-equal
>

Hold on a minute.

Why do we assume that humans "Default" to 12-edo, even with all of the
cultural hammering we get? Can we even assume that that "hammering" is
actually, accurately tuned 12-edo?

IF some random duude from off the street sings, say, a major scale, can
anyone **really** say whether they're singing it in 12edo, as opposed to
19tet, or some kind of meantone, or even in JI?

Same for string players, if they're playing tonal music, are they really
going to be playing in 12-edo as a default? Who's to say that some G#-A
that a quartet plays wouldn't look in a spectrogram more like it was tuned
in 55-edo? or whatever?

So in this sense, that theory guy that Paul talked to HAS played and heard
"alternative tuning systems", all the time. He's simply deluded into
thinking that unless it sounds "wacky", it's 12-edo.

It seems to me, that the only place in heard musical culture where 12-edo
really rules is on keyboard and keyed instruments (pianos, winds, etc.).

For voices and strings, isn't rare, if not downright impossible, that
you'd ever hear truly accurate 12-edo?

Am I way off base here?

Bailey

> Hold on a minute.
>
> Why do we assume that humans "Default" to 12-edo, even with all
> of the cultural hammering we get? Can we even assume that
> that "hammering" is actually, accurately tuned 12-edo?

Indeed.

> It seems to me, that the only place in heard musical culture
> where 12-edo really rules is on keyboard and keyed instruments
> (pianos, winds, etc.).

Yep.

> For voices and strings, isn't rare, if not downright impossible,
> that you'd ever hear truly accurate 12-edo?

Yep.

> Am I way off base here?

Nope.

-C.

hi Christopher,

> From: "Christopher Bailey" <cb202@columbia.edu>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:06 PM
> Subject: [tuning] singing in 12-ed??????????????
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Same for string players, if they're playing
> tonal music, are they really going to be playing
> in 12-edo as a default? Who's to say that some
> G#-A that a quartet plays wouldn't look in a
> spectrogram more like it was tuned in 55-edo?
> or whatever?
>
> So in this sense, that theory guy that Paul talked
> to HAS played and heard "alternative tuning systems",
> all the time. He's simply deluded into thinking
> that unless it sounds "wacky", it's 12-edo.

that's a *really* good point, and the converse is
just as true: most listeners *do* assume, before
they hear it, that if a piece of music is labeled
"microtonal", it's going to sound weird. but that's
not necessarily the case.

> It seems to me, that the only place in heard musical
> culture where 12-edo really rules is on keyboard and
> keyed instruments (pianos, winds, etc.).

don't forget about fretted strings -- despite the
intense interest in alternative guitar frettings,
i'd bet that the percentage of 12edo-fretted guitars
(as compared to other frettings) is well over 99%.

> For voices and strings, isn't rare, if not downright
> impossible, that you'd ever hear truly accurate 12-edo?
>
>
> Am I way off base here?

not at all. in fact, one story which i've written
about here many times before is that of Schoenberg
coaching his "own" string quartet, the Kolisch Quartet.

during rehearsals for the premier of one of his
quartets, Schoenberg painstakingly spent hours
checking their tuning with that of a piano ostensibly
tuned in 12edo. the resulting recordings do sound
quite different (to my ears) from all other recordings
of Schoenberg's quartets.

-monz

again, he was not talking about exact 12-equal at all. i simply
brought up the example of 19-equal, where the augmented seconds are
253 cents, and he said something to the effect that this would not be
a cognitively feasible solution, and doubts that such a tuning would
ever have been used on free-pitch instruments, even in the
renaissance. in my experience, though, narrow augmented seconds like
this, strange as they sound at first, make perfect sense in the
context of diatonic triadic music once one becomes acclimated to the
tuning. since the academics agree that augmented seconds are
perceived as dissonant anyway (in any "12-like" tuning), the idea
that they're "out of tune" if not close enough to minor thirds
strikes me as odd and indicates to me that the academics have
incorporated a hidden layer of "assuming 12" into their set of
axioms. hopefully we can get this guy or someone similar onto this
list to flesh this out . . . please be patient in the meantime . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:
>
> >
> >that
> >tuning in the renaissance was ever very different than 12-equal
> >
>
> Hold on a minute.
>
> Why do we assume that humans "Default" to 12-edo, even with all of
the
> cultural hammering we get? Can we even assume that
that "hammering" is
> actually, accurately tuned 12-edo?
>
> IF some random duude from off the street sings, say, a major scale,
can
> anyone **really** say whether they're singing it in 12edo, as
opposed to
> 19tet, or some kind of meantone, or even in JI?
>
> Same for string players, if they're playing tonal music, are they
really
> going to be playing in 12-edo as a default? Who's to say that
some G#-A
> that a quartet plays wouldn't look in a spectrogram more like it
was tuned
> in 55-edo? or whatever?
>
> So in this sense, that theory guy that Paul talked to HAS played
and heard
> "alternative tuning systems", all the time. He's simply deluded
into
> thinking that unless it sounds "wacky", it's 12-edo.
>
> It seems to me, that the only place in heard musical culture where
12-edo
> really rules is on keyboard and keyed instruments (pianos, winds,
etc.).
>
> For voices and strings, isn't rare, if not downright impossible,
that
> you'd ever hear truly accurate 12-edo?
>
>
> Am I way off base here?
>
>
>
> Bailey