Re: various -- Wilson

>This is definitely one of his most poetic excursions. I really believe
>that the examples makes it pretty clear .

Yes, ultimately they do. I neglected to clarify that I did eventually come
to understand the point of that paper. But I was pointing it out as an
example of some particularly thick language. I have actually been playing
with the first example cycle based on the enharmonic scale, but adapted
into 22ET. (This may blunt some intonational subtleties, but hopefully
retains the basic point of the modulations.)

>The statement conveys that Wilson hears that urge in tetrachord scales to
modulate to develop themselves. Just as other scales develop by cycle of
5ths.Both have happened in the mid-east and his knowledge of this might be
the fountainhead behind it. He is quite conservative in his speculation in
that much of his work is based on historical examples and practice.

When reading his papers I have been curious how much of it is observation
of the patterns of actual ethnic musics and how much is his speculation of
where it *could* be taken. Are there recorded examples somewhere of
tetrachordal scales modulating in this way in actual music -- either ethnic
musics or Wilson-influenced?

>He shows actual scales analogs (Todi, Purvi, and Marwa and how these
scales can be modulated one to the other and/or the way they might have
developed by it "inertia" in a culture that doesn't modulate.

Are those names of specific raga scales? I never did figure out why the
papers are titled after them and why there are little "Todi", etc. labels
on the diagrams.

>Once again if you don't understand something ask and I will try to explain
what I know about it.

Thanks!

Also, since the topic is coming up again in another thread, could you
expand a little more on the application of MOS to JI scales? Its use is
completely obvious in ET's but much less obvious to JI. Correct me where
I'm mistaken: It appears that what you call a Constant Structure is a set
of just pitches in which any particular interval is always subtended by the
same number of steps. (e.g. in a 22-tone structure a 6/5 might always be 6
steps, a 3/2 always 13 steps, etc. But 6 or 13 steps might not necessarily
always be a 6/5 or 3/2...) The "3 22-tone scales" you have posted would be
Constant Structures, right? Or the 17-tone Pythagorean/skhismatic scale in
the "Basic Patterns in Genus 12 and 17"? (Also, what is the definition of
Genus?) Once the N degrees of a Constant Structure are defined it can be
used pretty much interchangeably with an N-ET scale, as far as taking
different MOS scales from it? But in JI, the resulting two steps (L and S)
will only be equal in number of scale degrees, not necessarily really
equal. Is all this correct or am I confused anywhere?

kp

Kris!
comments below!

Kris Peck wrote:

> When reading his papers I have been curious how much of it is observation
> of the patterns of actual ethnic musics and how much is his speculation of
> where it *could* be taken. Are there recorded examples somewhere of
> tetrachordal scales modulating in this way in actual music -- either ethnic
> musics or Wilson-influenced?

The permutations of the tetrachords were a common method in the Persian world.
Both in theroy and practice. Even in there pop music i hear these modulations
all the time, usually at the entrance of a new instrument. Erlander's Musique
Arabe is filled with page after page of transcriptions showing these type of
things. I think that Erv speculates in which these way these scales "could" be
taken. But in the most conservative way. I don't think any of the Persian
theorist would have objected to them. Even though there is more objection to
these scales now!

>
>
> >He shows actual scales analogs (Todi, Purvi, and Marwa and how these
> scales can be modulated one to the other and/or the way they might have
> developed by it "inertia" in a culture that doesn't modulate.
>
> Are those names of specific raga scales?

Yes. He includes them to show his tie with the past and with real scales in
the real world, even if it it is by analogs! That a scale has developed and
survived though eons is enough for Erv to realize that any theroy has to
accomadate them. Why they have is a question that is unanswerable. They are
enigmas that we can only to point to certain aspects of and build upon, There
will always be levels that we can only intuit.

> I never did figure out why the
> papers are titled after them and why there are little "Todi", etc. labels
> on the diagrams.
>
> >Once again if you don't understand something ask and I will try to explain
> what I know about it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Also, since the topic is coming up again in another thread, could you
> expand a little more on the application of MOS to JI scales? Its use is
> completely obvious in ET's but much less obvious to JI. Correct me where
> I'm mistaken: It appears that what you call a Constant Structure is a set
> of just pitches in which any particular interval is always subtended by the
> same number of steps. (e.g. in a 22-tone structure a 6/5 might always be 6
> steps, a 3/2 always 13 steps, etc. But 6 or 13 steps might not necessarily
> always be a 6/5 or 3/2...) The "3 22-tone scales" you have posted would be
> Constant Structures, right? Or the 17-tone Pythagorean/skhismatic scale in
> the "Basic Patterns in Genus 12 and 17"?

you got it!

> (Also, what is the definition of
> Genus?)

the Genus 12 would be all 12 tone scales (MOS and Constant structures). As in
Botany, a group, here all with the same number. These scales as they are
practiced though, varible. Which happens in both ET and JI probably! Small
shifts are expected!

> Once the N degrees of a Constant Structure are defined it can be
> used pretty much interchangeably with an N-ET scale, as far as taking
> different MOS scales from it? But in JI, the resulting two steps (L and S)
> will only be equal in number of scale degrees, not necessarily really
> equal. Is all this correct or am I confused anywhere?

This is completely correct!
Yes in JI the structural meaning is preserved but with a different slant.
These are musically interesting and rewarding. example see the second chart
at http://www.anaphoria.com/tun.per.html the 7 tone MOS of Centaur.

>
>
> kp

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com