Re: Thou Shalt Not...

Well, there ya go... Guess I got better than I expected, and maybe better than I deserved. Thank you, almost everyone, for your tolerance and patience...you have greatly improved my perception of this list thereby!

Having said that...

Mr. Gann:

>A homosexual should be able to walk into a gay bar without Jerry Falwell >running in to shout at him, once again, that homosexuality is a departure >from God's natural law. And a microtonalist should be able to come to the >tuning list without some assh[*]le running in to tell him, once again, that >12tet is the one perfect and natural tuning. People who think the majority >culture is just ducky have other places they can hang out.

Well, with all due respect, as far as my feeble understanding goes, I don't think that that's what Daniel was doing, exactly. He made some points with which I wouldn't myself agree, to be sure (as far as I can understand any of this), but he certainly made them _far_ more politely than you are making yours at the moment, sieur!

And, to run with your own analogy, if Jerry Falwell entered a gay bar to preach the Bible (assuming the analogy is a valid one), if he is then chased away with howls of profanity and flying found objects, what conclusions and inferences will he then draw? He will conclude that his opponents are obviously in the wrong, incapable of sustaining a reasoned discussion on the matter, and so insecure and close-minded that they must react to any challenge with puerile derision.

I doubt whether, under these circumstances, either Mr. Falwell or the inhabitants of the hypothetical gay bar will learn anything of value from the encounter.

I know that you feel that this list should be a place for microtonalists rather than, in your words, "People who think the majority culture is just ducky". OK, fine. But what chance do you have of spreading your message if you treat sincere enquirers like that, calling them an "assh[*]le"? Even Partch did not disdain working with regular band instruments (12-ET, I _presume_) in 'The Bewitched' and 'Revelation'...

I have seen your Anaphoria website, and been impressed by its great beauty, creativity and cultural significance. I have even recorded some of my own music (12-ET pop) in response to its inspiration. It saddens me that you feel it necessary to employ such derisive tactics in discussion and debate.

Jon:

>Zx: (if that is the appropriate attribution...)

Oh, it'll do. It's my stage name, and I exist on the Net within it through force of habit. Call me by my birth name, Rowan Holmes, by all means if ->Zx<- annoys you...

>Sure, it's valid. Probably the reason no one felt compelled to reply. > >However, unlike Daniel, you didn't mention it as the beginning of a thread >that said "Serialism is the *best* way to write music, and people who have >been writing music in other ways are mistaken. And all that music would >sound better if we just serialized it."

Well, it's not that I _mind_ that nobody bothered to reply...it's just that, I could be mistaken o'course, but I _thought_ that I had read, just before I de-lurked and in consequence of the Fernyhough I/V, all kinds of statements of the kind: 'serialism is arid, mathematical and empty'; 'serialism is an invalid technique'; 'academic serialists are this and that'; and so on. As an ingorant popster, I was genuinely puzzled as to how anyone could claim that composition on the basis of a tone row was somehow more inherently 'mathematical' than the calculation of Pythagorean ratios based on a notional vibrating string. Since no-one felt compelled to reply, I remain puzzled on this point...

Daniel _did_ put his case rather strongly, and perhaps indiscreetly. However, he has responded perfectly politely, IMHO, to his responders, and has carried on the discussion with what appears to me to be a laudible open-mindedness and preparedness to learn. I think that his reception has, perhaps, been unduly harsh in some quarters, and, as I also said, I _don't_ think that's the way to bring five hundred lurkers out into the open!

>>This place is sounding more and more like any other Conservatorium with >>each successive digest. (Emphasis on conservative!)

>Don't know how long you've been on, but this place ebbs and flows quite a >bit.
>But I can tell you that of the people I know here that have actively > >created music, or actively developed the basis for a music (consisting of >one or more 'alternate' tuning systems) - well, the stuff is pretty much >all over the map. Some of it conservative, yes; > some of it not that at >all.

Oh, I've been around for quite a while now; but I only post when I have something to say, and since I remain regrettably unversed in the science of ratios, and have my hands well and truly full with 12-ET right now (well, at least A = 435!), that isn't very often. I hope to be able to plunge into microtonality before I die, tho', Goddess willing, and I'm here to learn. That's why this matter bugged me enough to post.

As far as this statement goes, you are right and I am wrong. The music I have been able to listen to from this group has been stimulating and exiting. I certainly agree that alternative tunings are one of the most important ways forward out of the wasteland of contemporary popular music. I was carried away with my irritation when I made this statement, which, on reflection, I find to be a gross overstatment and largely unjustified.

I therefore withdraw it, and offer the group my humble apologies.

>12tet has it's place, and there are zillions of places to explore it; > >there are damn few places to explore everything else, and this is one > of >those places.

Yes! Yes! Yes! You and Kyle are RIGHT! Of course! But you're not gonna make any friends by kickin' the guts outta newbies....;o>

>>Everybody has to start somewhere, and even Partch composed 12-ET music in >>his early years, before giving up, burning the lot, and starting again >>from the _true_ basics.

>Hey, he's talking *my* subject! Yep, he sure did. And when he learned > >about what you refer to as the "_true_ basics", he had to find that out all >on his own, in a burdonsome and laborious exercise in low-
>rent scholarship and musical archeology.

Partch, IMHO, was a courageous man and a profound scholar in his field. He struggled long and bitterly to get his message out once he cut himself adrift from 12-ET. I have been greatly devoted to his music for half my life now. But he obviously didn't _need_ academic support, given what he _did_ achieve...of course, he possibly would have achieved even more if he had had it, but I find myself wondering about whether that would have been so...

>I have often wondered what would have happened (and wished, now, that > I >had asked him when he was alive) if there was a support network of > people >like the tuning list for him to bounce ideas off of. Even ideas like >"virtually all music would sound best in 12tet".

Yes, yes; it's a rash statement, to be sure...all the more reason to keep the discussion open, I would have thought...

>>Perhaps this sort of reception explains why there are some five hundred >>lurkers on the list; maybe they feel just a trifle intimidated...?

>Hardly. You must have missed this in one of my first replies to Daniel: >"Look, I mean this in all good intent. ASCII is awful at portraying >feelings, so don't take any 'mean-ness' in my writing."

>To which he replied "np", the universally accepted acronym for "no >problem".

No, no, Jon; I was here and I caught all that, including your taking the trouble to listen to his music. I wasn't necessarily talking about _your_ reaction...to me, this represents close to ideal standards of discussion, and I highly appreciate the trouble you have taken.

However, I think that my comments about a PERHAPS somewhat intimidatory atmosphere in general might bear some fruit on careful reflection, that is if the group is anxious to propagate their message more widely...

>A Kithara, maybe

You're right...much better configuration for this purpose...;o>

AM:

>A blanket statement like "12 is best" doesn't really show us an "open >and >enquiring mind"

Well, indeed that's true: but I reckon, to be fair, that he _has_ shown all the requisite signs of being prepared to hear his responders out, following that rash opening...

>I remember (going misty-eyed) that I lurked for a time then posted a > few >of my own ideas and was ritually slaughtered : - )

I got nuthin' against a vigourous debate, but I let out my squawk in this case 'cos I felt it was veering over the line a little...

>The edginess that some may feel on the fringes of a list such as this > >mirrors the situation we have with musical academia and microtonality, fear >of the unknown, made more acute by the fact that > the subject perceives >him- or herself to be extremely knowledgeable about music.

Oh, of course! Believe me, I understand _this_! And it must be excessively annoying to have someone even prudently advocating 12-ET on a list which many people clearly feel belongs to microtonalists. And, of course, microtonality is ignored or derided by MANY, BUT NOT ALL academics, who, of course, consider themselves the alpha and omega of musicality and knowledge. But...perhaps this is the price to be paid for being a pioneer? And which is more important; academic acceptance, grants and sinecures, or being true to oneself as a composer/musician, come what may?

And what to do if one cannot then have both?

>You will learn on the fringes but you will learn much much more by entering >into some of the discussions. And don't worry about the lack > of social >graces here and there. This is the internet after all.

Well, I'm here, and I'm staying for as long as you'll let me. But, Alison, just because the _rest_ of the Net is sophomoric and semi-literate, does that mean that this list has to follow their lead? I would have expected better...

>Kind Regards

Thank you! Likewise!

->Zx<-

And a happy Christmas to those who observe it!

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The proliferation of children who can reach the heights of computer creation brings to light a basic feature of the computer itself - it is infantile...[t]he microcomputer is above all a game and is infantile. But it is also very dangerous. We need to know whether it does not also 'infantalize'.

-Jacques Ellul, `The Technological Bluff'
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The disciple Hui-K'e asked Bodhidharma, "Please help me to quiet my mind." Bodhidharma said, "Bring me your mind so that I can quiet it." After a moment Hui-K'e said, "But I can't find my mind." "There," said Bodhidharma, "I have now quieted your mind."

-Charles Luk

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Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion.

-Democritos

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