stuff

Yes, Johnny, in fact if the list were in order of importance, I would
say we need
1. composers
2. performers
3. builders
4. enthusiasts
5. theorists
6. groupies

Ouch! Hey, personal preference!

A fella emailed me privately and asked for a suggestion for a microtonal
tuner. Any ideas?

I just posted some of Herman Miller's music in my Listen to Microtonal
MIDI and Listen to Microtonal Real Audio. Nice stuff.

My group is headlining a benefit for the Denver Citywide Band (high school
concert and marching band) Sept. 12 with the usual suspects (Haverstick
and Ernie Crews). We have been playing microtonal concerts in the Denver
schools for years, but this will be the first time the parents will be
exposed. Of course, they have been listening to "microtonal" music all
along...

John Starrett
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/microtone.html

>>I'm not looking for a shortcut for finding MOS's, I'm hoping to find
>>higher-D analogs to MOS's by applying the rule to bigger periodicity
>>blocks.
>
>Aha! How would such analogs be defined?

I have no earthly idea.

>>You bet! Of course any chain-of-fifths tuning can be viewed as a
>>periodicity block whose unison vector is the chromatic interval, not just
>>the pentatonic scale, and not just the MOS's.
>
>Hmm . . . a 6-note chain of fifths has the tritone as unison vector, and I
>would hardly call a tritone a single chromatic step . . .

Sheesh! My bad. I was confusing the note it changed _to_ with the
_amount_ it changed. Let's see...

David Beardsley wrote...

>Traitor.

To be a traitor one must first have sworn not to trade against something.

>>My 12-equal music also gives many people a lot of joy.
>
>Wasted drunks in a bar digging a blues band?

I visited Paul, and the people he's playing with and for are hardly drunks,
and the stuff he's playing is hardly blues. David, this is about the
lowest and poorest post I've seen here in two years. Shame on you!

-C.

Thanks Carl for standing up for me. It's not easy taking unfounded insults
(traitor . . . "therorist" . . . wasted drunks . . . those who can't, teach)
from someone who doesn't even know me. When I put my heart, soul, and mind
into my guitar playing on a virtually daily basis for 12 years, reading such
posts hurts. It hurts in the way racism hurts when coming from people
totally unfamiliar with the culture they are demeaning. Because it's not
like you can do something to improve yourself in their eyes, they just hate
you and that's all there is to it. No matter what you say they'll twist it
around and use it to put you down. They assume they know everything there is
to know about you, so there is no escape from the cage they've constructed.

David, I met you at the Microthon and I gave you a friendly hello. Anything
that was said on the list faded away when I looked into the eyes of a real
person in the flesh named David Beardsley. I'm sorry to have missed your
piece but after a ride from Boston, a sleepless night, and another
traffic-riddled drive from New Jersey, we had to be late. You are a human
being and I know you feel emotions, appreciate beauty, and struggle to
communicate just as I do. I love you, David. Please let go of your hatred.
There are many ways of doing that. Performing music is one of the best --
try it! I mean play and instrument and sing! Performing acts of generosity
is another. Give a homeless person a place to sleep for a night! Their
gratitude will make you feel better about yourself. And you can't be feeling
very good about yourself right now if you have to spend your time putting
down people you don't even know. I welcome you to come visit me in Boston
and see who I really am. You will meet many interesting people who love
music and the company of others. You will not be judged. Let us end this
destructive hostility.

Patrick Pagano wrote,

>FLAME ONE

>i think 12tone equal temp is Safe as Milk.

>I tend use 12 tones per octave(JUST) for the keyboards that i cannot tweak
to 37
>notes per octave( i only have one) and i have just had the mini grand at
work
>tuned to pythag 3 and since it has been tuned i have been doing some
Charley
>Palestine type strummings on it and even the blue hairs have commented on
how much
>"nicer" it sounds after i spent the whole 10 minutes explaining WHY it
should be
>tuned so. Convenience is the father of Milk.

Patrick, that's not a flame at all and I totally agree with you. 12-tET
arose in our culture as a convenient alternative to meantone, and many
non-meantone tunings have been unfairly ignored as well. What I've been
trying to do is play real music with real musicians, so that I can learn as
much as possible about the art before I go off in a solitary direction.
Every style of music is capable of moving people in different ways, each
with its own set of subtleties and nuances (including those of pitch!), so
by getting a handle on a wide range of styles I'm learning how to
communicate through music. It's something that has to be felt. I think I'm
doing well on this path and my microtonal compositions and improvisations so
far, though primitive, have convinced me that there is much more to be felt
than what 12-equal is capable of.

Paul E wrote

> Patrick, that's not a flame at all and I totally agree with you.
>
i agree that was not a real flame on
i am just tired of 12 tet but i will state that you have to begin somewhere and
to recruit and play with new musicians sometimes you must meet them on territory
they are familiar with (12tet) and then if you are a competent musical director
you may steer the ensemble into Just mean tone etc.....
good luck to you on yr path and you and D.B. should let the music do the talking
~
i have heard Beardsley's pieces and they are a force to reckon with
i cannot comment on yours as i have not heard any
ciao
Pat Pagano

> Patrick, that's not a flame at all and I totally agree with you.

Carl Lumma wrote:

> David Beardsley wrote...
>
> >Traitor.
>
> To be a traitor one must first have sworn not to trade against something.

Eh? You're taking me a bit too seriously on that one.

> >>My 12-equal music also gives many people a lot of joy.
> >Wasted drunks in a bar digging a blues band?
>
> I visited Paul, and the people he's playing with and for are hardly drunks,
> and the stuff he's playing is hardly blues.

If the "stuff he's playing is hardly blues" why does he describe it
as a blues band?

> David, this is about the
> lowest and poorest post I've seen here in two years. Shame on you!

Is it worse than the time I replied to your untitled
list of 10 microtonal albums by adding a few not
to forget? You remember, the time you itemized
each line with a "it sucks" comment?

Now that was only last winter and you apologized,
but you're not one to start pointing fingers.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Thanks Carl for standing up for me. It's not easy taking unfounded insults
> (traitor . . . "therorist"

OK. Sorry. You're not a theroist. Have it your way.

> . . . wasted drunks . . . those who can't, teach)
> from someone who doesn't even know me.

I know you well enough. See my comments down below.

> When I put my heart, soul, and mind
> into my guitar playing on a virtually daily basis for 12 years, reading such
> posts hurts. It hurts in the way racism hurts when coming from people
> totally unfamiliar with the culture they are demeaning.

Racism? Don't even try it.

> Because it's not
> like you can do something to improve yourself in their eyes, they just hate
> you and that's all there is to it. No matter what you say they'll twist it
> around and use it to put you down. They assume they know everything there is
> to know about you, so there is no escape from the cage they've constructed.
>
> David, I met you at the Microthon and I gave you a friendly hello. Anything
> that was said on the list faded away when I looked into the eyes of a real
> person in the flesh named David Beardsley.

Ahhh...as I recall, since then, you're the guy who was circulating
the "they don't know the difference between ratios
and intervals" comment. Dave Keenan was right to
quit the list. You made a total ass out of him.
Obviously a way of putting him in his place. Shame on him for
getting in your way.

Then...when I contributed a post about the difference
between playing ebow fretless bass and dobro (two
totally different instruments) with a sine tone, you
made some unrelated remark about how sine tones are inferior.

After I called you on it, I forgot it. Later that evening, I'm
tending my web pages, pruning and creating when I get multiple
private emails
from you disputing what I wrote. Paul, do you really stop
in at work in the middle of the night and fire off multiple
emails about how right you are? Until 1:30am???

Get a life Paul! If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk.
Isn't that what this is really what started this little exchange
this week? The Jonathan Szanto post? Do - don't talk? It would
be worth so much more? Putting all this theory to work?

> I'm sorry to have missed your
> piece but after a ride from Boston, a sleepless night, and another
> traffic-riddled drive from New Jersey, we had to be late.

I'm not too concerned that you missed my piece.
Haven't lost a wink of sleep.

> You are a human
> being and I know you feel emotions, appreciate beauty, and struggle to
> communicate just as I do. I love you, David. Please let go of your hatred.
> There are many ways of doing that. Performing music is one of the best --
> try it! I mean play and instrument and sing!

I've done that a few times this year. Us microtonalists
don't have as many opportunities to work as you 12tet guys
who hesitate to dive into microtonality. Cold feet?

> Performing acts of generosity
> is another. Give a homeless person a place to sleep for a night!

The last time I did that I had to buy him a
train ticket back to Philly after he wouldn't leave
for a few days.

> Their
> gratitude will make you feel better about yourself.

There was very little or no gratitude. Just looking for
free handouts.

> And you can't be feeling
> very good about yourself right now if you have to spend your time putting
> down people you don't even know.

Sigh. I think I know you well enough Paul. See comments above.

> I welcome you to come visit me in Boston
> and see who I really am. You will meet many interesting people who love
> music and the company of others. You will not be judged.

Got better things to do. There's way too much to do in NYC
and praticing to do here at home.

> Let us end this
> destructive hostility.

Does this mean that you're going to think twice before you
rip anybody on this list a new one? You're always the first guy
to correct anyone over the smallest infraction.

> --

* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
*
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

[David Beardsley:]
> Get a life Paul! If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk.
Isn't that what this is really what started this little exchange this
week? The Jonathan Szanto post? Do - don't talk? It would be worth so
much more? Putting all this theory to work?

Generally speaking, I'd expect that the theorist would tend to say
that they theorize better than they musician-ize, and musician would
tend to say that they musician-ize better than they theorize. But even
if this is a completely insignificant (or off the mark) sort of
truism, I think it is fairly safe to say that the best accomplishments
of both the musician and the theorist are certainly worthy doings...
Inspired, rigorous, skillful, imaginative... these are some of the
sorts of things that come to my mind when I try to think of what could
be said to describe both good music and good theory.

It just doesn't seem to make any sense to me to expect the same sorts
of doings from a "theorist" as one would expect from a "musician" (or
vice-versa). And it's especially in this respect that, "Do - don't
talk" seems to me a completely inapt appraisal, or description of what
Paul Erlich does here at the TD... In fact, in the nine months I've
been receiving the TD, I'd dare say that I can't really think of
anybody who does more, with less talk, than Paul. And in more ways
than one I'm kind of fighting someone else's fight here... because
theory plays an infinitesimally minute role in the way I actually go
about my own musical business. I'm self-taught and (stupidly)
stubborn, and no matter what I seem to learn, or better understand
about the technical and interpersonal aspects of music, I only seem
capable of wanting what I've always wanted from music - to get it
right... which may or may not have anything to do with getting it
correct, or getting it good.

Dan

>[David Beardsley:]
>> Get a life Paul! If you're going to talk the talk, walk the walk.
>Isn't that what this is really what started this little exchange this
>week? The Jonathan Szanto post? Do - don't talk? It would be worth so
>much more? Putting all this theory to work?
>
>"D.Stearns" <stearns@capecod.net> wrote:
>Generally speaking, I'd expect that the theorist would tend to say
>that they theorize better than they musician-ize, and musician would
>tend to say that they musician-ize better than they theorize. But even
>if this is a completely insignificant (or off the mark) sort of
>truism, I think it is fairly safe to say that the best accomplishments
>of both the musician and the theorist are certainly worthy doings...
>Inspired, rigorous, skillful, imaginative... these are some of the
>sorts of things that come to my mind when I try to think of what could
>be said to describe both good music and good theory.
>
>It just doesn't seem to make any sense to me to expect the same sorts
>of doings from a "theorist" as one would expect from a "musician" (or
>vice-versa). And it's especially in this respect that, "Do - don't
>talk" seems to me a completely inapt appraisal, or description of what
>Paul Erlich does here at the TD... In fact, in the nine months I've
>been receiving the TD, I'd dare say that I can't really think of
>anybody who does more, with less talk, than Paul. And in more ways
>than one I'm kind of fighting someone else's fight here... because
>theory plays an infinitesimally minute role in the way I actually go
>about my own musical business. I'm self-taught and (stupidly)
>stubborn, and no matter what I seem to learn, or better understand
>about the technical and interpersonal aspects of music, I only seem
>capable of wanting what I've always wanted from music - to get it
>right... which may or may not have anything to do with getting it
>correct, or getting it good.

I, zHANg, am also largely self-taught. ... & IMHO I am still tryin' to
learn somethings by subscribin' to this TD. I find that all this aggro
"stuff" to be rather counter-productive to the general tone (pardon
the pun =) ) of this supposedly adult, educated forum for microtonality.
I have gained some good friends via this list & consider all here to be,
at least, to be "friendly" & - at most - true close friends & colleagues.
I come home from my wage-slave job with eagerness to see the latest
postings on this list... to see if I can learn new things, hopeful be able
understand at least 1/2 of it, to laugh at you people's jokes, to relax...
I get enough back-stabbing office politics at work; it's unnecessary here
on the List.
Enuff said (on this nasty topic), never enuff done...

zHANg

David wrote, of me,

>If the "stuff he's playing is hardly blues" why does he describe it
>as a blues band?

Once again, you're putting words into my mouth. In one post I referred to
playing some blues at Buddy Guy's Legends in Chicago. That was actually with
a folk band, one of the many ensembles I've played with recently.

>If the "stuff he's playing is hardly blues" why does he describe it
>as a blues band?

I must have missed that.

>Is it worse than the time I replied to your untitled
>list of 10 microtonal albums by adding a few not
>to forget? You remember, the time you itemized
>each line with a "it sucks" comment?

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way, David, but it looked like a
personal attack on Paul. My sucks comments were serious critiques of works
of music. I did make a crack at your musical taste, which I appologized
for, and no, I don't think it was nearly as severe as your post yesterday.

David, you seem to be spiting everybody in a careless manner. Keenan left
because he couldn't afford the time, and that homeless crack is just too
much; you allowed yourself to be trapped by your own guilt, and now you're
blaming him because you did something you didn't want to do?

-Carl

David wrote,

>I know you well enough. See my comments down below.

[ . . . ]

>Sigh. I think I know you well enough Paul. See comments above.

Between these two, what comments demonstrate that you know me well enough?

>Does this mean that you're going to think twice before you
>rip anybody on this list a new one? You're always the first guy
>to correct anyone over the smallest infraction.

Yes, I believe I could have acted much more graciously in the past and have
been striving for a more inclusive tone.

>> Thanks Carl for standing up for me. It's not easy taking unfounded
insults
>> (traitor . . . "therorist"

>OK. Sorry. You're not a theroist. Have it your way.

David, I may have misinterpreted you. I thought you were making a play on
the word "terrorist" -- see your spelling above.

>> [Paul Erlich, TD 341.13]
>> My 12-equal music also gives many people a lot of joy.
>
> [David Beardsley, TD 341.15]
> Wasted drunks in a bar digging a blues band?

Without arguing for or against, the point should be made
that *lots* of great music (from Yaqui Native-American
rituals to Berlioz to Jimi Hendrix) was conceived, performed,
and heard by people whose states of consciousness had been
altered by the ingestion of various different substances
(or thru other means).

With reference to the particular mind-altering substance
invoked here, a person whose work is admired by many on this
List (including David Beardsley), namely, Harry Partch,
had an affinity for alcholic beverages which causes people
I've spoken to who actually knew him to refer to him in
terms that are not so different from 'wasted drunk'.

For that matter, lots of great blues and rock musicians
could be described by that term.

>> [zHANg, TD 342.18]
>> I come home from my wage-slave job with eagerness to see the
>> latest postings on this list... to see if I can learn new
>> things, hopeful be able understand at least 1/2 of it, to
>> laugh at you people's jokes, to relax...
>
> [gEORGe, TD 342.19]
> Laugh at jokes. Really? When?

Here's a good example:

>> [Paul ErlichTD 342.8]
>> Performing acts of generosity is another. Give a
>> homeless person a place to sleep for a night!
>
> [David Beardsley, TD 342.16]
> The last time I did that I had to buy him a
> train ticket back to Philly after he wouldn't leave
> for a few days.
>
>> [Paul]
>> Their gratitude will make you feel better about yourself.
>
> [David]
> There was very little or no gratitude. Just looking for
> free handouts.

Unless there's an incredible coincidence here with someone
else, David is making a reference to the three nights I spent
at his house before and after this past May's Microthon.

First of all, I'm not homeless. Secondly, after taking
the train back to Philly on Monday with the ticket Dave
bought me (because I stayed longer than expected and was
running out of money), I saw him at the AFMM Finale on
Thursday and paid him back all the money he spent on train
fare and lunch *and* threw in a few dollars more just for
having put him out of his way. Admittedly, it was much
less than what I would have spent on a hotel, but I still
repaid everything that was spent on me. Where's the
'free handout'?

I hesitated to send this to the List rather than to Dave
personally, but he *knew* that I'd be reading that jibe he
made at me here, and even tho he didn't mention my name,
I feel quite insulted by it and wished to make a public
statement.

Unless, of course, it was meant as a joke. :)

Now can we go back to writing posts about *TUNING*!?

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo Philadelphia monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
--------------------------------------------------

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

JOe!
The truth of the matter is that music like alchemy starts in the sewer
and ends in the palaces. Never the other way around!
.
.0

Joe Monzo wrote:

> From: Joe Monzo <monz@juno.com>
>
> >> [Paul Erlich, TD 341.13]
> >> My 12-equal music also gives many people a lot of joy.
> >
> > [David Beardsley, TD 341.15]
> > Wasted drunks in a bar digging a blues band?
>
> Without arguing for or against, the point should be made
> that *lots* of great music (from Yaqui Native-American
> rituals to Berlioz to Jimi Hendrix) was conceived, performed,
> and heard by people whose states of consciousness had been
> altered by the ingestion of various different substances
> (or thru other means).
>
> With reference to the particular mind-altering substance
> invoked here, a person whose work is admired by many on this
> List (including David Beardsley), namely, Harry Partch,
> had an affinity for alcholic beverages which causes people
> I've spoken to who actually knew him to refer to him in
> terms that are not so different from 'wasted drunk'.
>
> For that matter, lots of great blues and rock musicians
> could be described by that term.
> -monz
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

Joe Monzo wrote:

> I hesitated to send this to the List rather than to Dave
> personally, but he *knew* that I'd be reading that jibe he
> made at me here, and even tho he didn't mention my name,
> I feel quite insulted by it and wished to make a public
> statement.

Come on man, you insulted? That's out of character!

$20 doesn't cover do-dah. I wasn't looking for money,
I bought you a ticket to get you to leave. You over stayed your welcome!

> Now can we go back to writing posts about *TUNING*!?

OK. So that piece of yours that I turned into a cd for
the fest, I spent about 15 hours on it because you couldn't
shut up long enough to hear your own music, what was it called?
Why was it in 12tet/ji instead of ji?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
*
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> David wrote,
>
> >I know you well enough. See my comments down below.
>
> [ . . . ]
>
> >Sigh. I think I know you well enough Paul. See comments above.
>
> Between these two, what comments demonstrate that you know me well enough?

So deep in denial he's fucking blind too.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
*
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> >> Thanks Carl for standing up for me. It's not easy taking unfounded
> insults
> >> (traitor . . . "therorist"
>
> >OK. Sorry. You're not a theroist. Have it your way.
>
> David, I may have misinterpreted you. I thought you were making a play on
> the word "terrorist" -- see your spelling above.

My sincerest apologies for mis-spelling a word in your presence.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
*
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

David Beardsley wrote:

> So deep in denial he's ******* blind too.

Sorry folks, that was supposed to be private email.
My screw up and my last comment on it.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n N e t R a d i o
*
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

In a message dated 10/7/99 1:14:32 PM, you wrote:

>From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
>>> Thanks Carl for standing up for me. It's not easy taking unfounded
>insults
>>> (traitor . . . "therorist"
>
>>OK. Sorry. You're not a theroist. Have it your way.
>
>David, I may have misinterpreted you. I thought you were making a play on
>the word "terrorist" -- see your spelling above.

zHANg <- musical "t(h)erorist" *musical mad scientist hyena gigglyfit*
{cue sound of metallic insectoid drones pulsating in shifting patterns of
hocketing "rifts"... music scale: a non-octave-repeating scale with numerous
combinational tones.}

To all parties involved:

I have been ignoring your posts for a couple of days now, hoping that this
thing would just boil over. Morbid curiosity got the better of me and I
read one today. You're way over the top. I don't care what you think of
anyone else, or what kind of stuff has gone down in the past, but the posts
you are writing have NOTHING to do with tuning. PLEASE send them to the
individuals involved instead of the list!

Thanks.

---
Glen Peterson
Peterson Stringed Instruments
30 Elm Street North Andover, MA 01845
(978) 975-1527
http://www.organicdesign.org/peterson

I have posted Paul Erlich's Folkker Periodicity Blocks tutorials on my
page under Notes on Microtonality.
Also, I was listening to Ralph Jarzombek's 14tet stuff at
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/53/ralph_jarzombek.html
and it's cool!

John Starrett
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/microtone.html