The notation of non-Western music in the system of Western music

Hello all members of the Tuning group,

Can you please help me get information and references related to the additions/alterations done to the Western music notation system, to include writing accurately of non-Western music?

Highly appreciating your learned response,
Sincerely,
Haresh.

Hi Haresh,

I believe cents notation was invented in part to do just that, represent
non-European based tuning choices. That is the way the field of
ethnomusicology records non-European based musics to this day.

best, Johnny Reinhard

>

Hello Haresh!
I am quite aware of how badly Alain Danielou misrepresented Indian Music but in his book on the Raga he did have a rather interesting Array of noteheads for different shutis. Possibly if the right scales were put with the right ragas it might be useful.
I happen to play this last week on my show
ANTHOLOGY OF INDIAN MUSIC: A TRIBUTE TO ALAIN DANIELOU. UNESCO/AUVIDIS D 8270
which is a reissue of recordings he made in the 50's. Some selections are too short but we find some well known players before their names became more well known. Some of this was new to me in that i hadn't heard some of this styff done just the way it was here. I imagine that the music varies greatly from place to place and time to time.

>
> From: "Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>" <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Hello all members of the Tuning group,
>
> Can you please help me get information and references related to the additions/alterations done to the Western music notation system, to include writing accurately of non-Western music?
>
> Highly appreciating your learned response,
> Sincerely,
> Haresh.
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Hello Haresh and All,

Please find my correspondence with Gunther, pertaining to Turkish
music, on a different platform on the same issue that you have raised
in your post on the Tuning List.

In addition, may I also refer you to the files on the Tuning List at
the address /tuning/files/Accidentals/ ,
in particular the file titled Mappings.doc, for more detailed
information.

I would be very much interested in your findings on this issue, as
you might have received responses to your post from various members.

Warm regards,

M. Kemal Karaosmanoglu

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[Post from Gunther requesting information on accidentals used in
Turkish music]

Dear all,
The Turkish Makams can be read with western notation. However, there
are different systems (Arel-Ezgi, Yekta Bey, Karadeniz). The second
problem is that these systems have different and theoretical non-
compatible accidentals (flats and sharps). The third problem is, that
these accidentals are not always what they pretend to be (a 1 comma
flat written accidental from the Arel-Ezgi system - 1,4,5,8,9 comma
accidentals - can be 2 comma's or more or something in between). The
accidentals are very usefull for didactical purposes, but can be
quite inaccurate in describing the exact frequencies that are played.
What I'd like to know, is how much deviation is allowed for the
accidentals, and in what cases. In many Turkish melodies, intervals
of about 150 cents (not the turkish cent, 1200 cents = the octave)
can be heard. In music notation, it is sometimes inpossible (unless
you know how the melodies should sound) to derive the correct
intervals from a written sheet with sharps and flats.
Musical practice and theory are not always very good friends.
Improvisatory talent and the mood of the player is very difficultly
translatable in a theoretical system.
However, I'd want to refret my guitar into 29-tone equal temperament,
and before i decide to do this, I have to know wheter the
approximation is too coarse (in theory it is) or not. If it is too
coarse, I have to know what deviations are allowed in practice, and
when exactly they occur.
If there were a notation system that describes the musical practice
accarate up to the comma (and that means including 6 and 7 comma
intervals if they occur IN PRACTICE), then if anybody has this
information, I would be enormously pleased with that.
The odds are great that only a decent book can solve my curiousness
and the practical fretting problem I'm having. I do not understand
sufficiently Turkish however, that will of course be a disadvantage.
If there's good material in English, please let me know.
Many thanks in advance,
Gunther
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[My response to the post copied above]

Hello Gunther,

I'm pleased to hear about your interest in Turkish music. I would
like to respond to some of your questions, if I may.

We need to add a "fourth" notation system to the ones you have
mentioned in your post, namely the notation used in Turkish Folk
music, since it uses some different accidentals. The western staff
notation is slightly modified by inserting superscripts to indicate
deviations, in terms of commas, from the "anchor" note. For example,
the superscript "b2" indicates a 2 comma flat, #3 indicates a 3 comma
sharp, and etc. However, such accidentals do not, in general,
represent the "exact" pitch values. Nevertheless, they are more
accurate than others.

Unfortunately there aren't any distinct rules for the Arel-Ezgi
notation concerning deviation limits in various cases. Sheet music
represents only a very crude "road map" for the "flow" of the melody
line. Despite these disadvantages, the said system is currently being
used in most conservatories of Turkish music in Turkey.

You are right about Turkish music intervals; there are some ancient
Turkish music theory books, which do mention ratios such as 12/11
(150.64 cents). However, the theories constructed in these books are
based on the Pythagorian 3-limit system. As you probably know, there
aren't any quarter tones in the Pythagorian system. In addition, such
ancient references point out significant variations between
theoretical models and practice.

53t-ET (53-tone Equal Temperament) is a common approximation in
Turkish music. Commas mentioned above are 23.46 cents. We in Çiragan
Musiki Dernegi (Çiragan Turkish Music Society) believe that classical
Turkish music and Turkish folk music both use the same system, i.e.
same sounds, rythms, maqams, and etc. On the other hand, we've had
our share of the very same problems you have mentioned about
accidentals, etc. Therefore, we decided to combine these two systems
of notation as follows: Arel-Ezgi notation is used commonly for
classical Turkish music, supplemented by folk music notation for more
accuracy. The result is, we show pitches which fit Arel-Ezgi systems'
notes with common classical Turkish music notation and the others
with Turkish folk music's.

You can find many examples of the notation described here at the
address www.musiki.org. We also included a MIDI sound file for almost
all of the written sheets for audio enhancement of the scores. I
recommend especially Ussak (www.musiki.org/ussak.htm) which uses
Si^b2, Hüzzam (www.musiki.org/huzzam.htm) which uses Mi^b2 and Sabâ
pages (www.musiki.org/saba.htm) using Do^#6-7 (Re^b2-3).

In fact almost all compositions in Turkish music have modulations.
So, all scores and the MIDI examples might be of interest to you.
These examples come from our printed books and accompanying audio
CD's. So far we have 24 books and CD's published (Selections From
various Maqams). All books are 32 pages in length and include
Peshrevs, Sharkis, Sazsemais, and etc.
Best regards,

M. Kemal Karaosmanoğlu
www.musiki.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@h...>"
<hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> Hello all members of the Tuning group,
>
> Can you please help me get information and references related to
the additions/alterations done to the Western music notation system,
to include writing accurately of non-Western music?
>
> Highly appreciating your learned response,
> Sincerely,
> Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "musiki_2 <mkemal@p...>" <mkemal@p...> wrote:

> You can find many examples of the notation described here at the
> address www.musiki.org. We also included a MIDI sound file for almost
> all of the written sheets for audio enhancement of the scores.

Thanks very much for posting this link! I've tried to find a good source for Turkish music, but was never satisfied; this is what I was looking for.