A bonus Warped Princess

Thanks to Joe Monzo for pointing out that the supposedly 14-et version of
Ravel's Pavane on my "Pavane for a Warped Princess" web page
(http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html) was in fact a copy of the
21-et version! I replaced it with what appears to be the correct 14-et
version. As a bonus, I tried one of the scales I'm currently playing with,
an 11-note MOS with generators of 318.4 cents and 1203.0 cents. Naturally,
one note of the 12-et original had to be duplicated in order to map it to
the 11-note scale, and there are many possible ways of mapping the notes. I
tried a couple different mappings, and surprisingly, one of them came out
reasonably well, considering that Ravel never intended this music to be
heard with this kind of scale. It's quite dissonant in parts, but a few of
the chords are really nice, and the melody is at least recognizable.
Somewhere along the line, it sounds like some of the notes turned out
wrong, but that only adds to the weird quirkiness of this tuning. Here's
the link:

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-z11.mid

--
see my music page ---> ---<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--
hmiller (Herman Miller) "If all Printers were determin'd not to print any
@io.com email password: thing till they were sure it would offend no body,
\ "Subject: teamouse" / there would be very little printed." -Ben Franklin

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> Thanks to Joe Monzo for pointing out that the supposedly 14-et
version of
> Ravel's Pavane on my "Pavane for a Warped Princess" web page
> (http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html) was in fact a copy
of the
> 21-et version! I replaced it with what appears to be the correct 14-
et
> version. As a bonus, I tried one of the scales I'm currently
playing with,
> an 11-note MOS with generators of 318.4 cents and 1203.0 cents.
Naturally,
> one note of the 12-et original had to be duplicated in order to map
it to
> the 11-note scale, and there are many possible ways of mapping the
notes. I
> tried a couple different mappings, and surprisingly, one of them
came out
> reasonably well, considering that Ravel never intended this music
to be
> heard with this kind of scale. It's quite dissonant in parts, but a
few of
> the chords are really nice, and the melody is at least recognizable.
> Somewhere along the line, it sounds like some of the notes turned
out
> wrong, but that only adds to the weird quirkiness of this tuning.
Here's
> the link:
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/pavane-z11.mid

in case anyone's interested in this scale a little more
theoretically, i believe that for all intents and purposes herman is
talking about this scale:

http://www.uq.net.au/~zzdkeena/Music/ChainOfMinor3rds.htm

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:

hi herman,

you wrote,

"In just intonation, or other non-meantone tunings, the pitches on
one side are not identical to the ones on the other side with the
same name."

in your just intonation version, i hear an out-of-tune consonance,
right before 00:03 rolls around. it this because you're *not* using
the pitches in parentheses on your lattice diagram? if so, is it that
you're just using 13 different pitches for the just example, and for
most of the others as well (except those with fewer pitches)? i this
could be explained more clearly on your page, for the benefit of the
listener -- one could read the above as possibly claiming that these
non-identical pitches are actually used in your just intonation and
other non-meantone renditions.

have i told you lately how much i love these pages, and ravel too?

> (http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html)

On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:10:48 -0000, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com> wrote:

>--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>
>hi herman,
>
>you wrote,
>
>"In just intonation, or other non-meantone tunings, the pitches on
>one side are not identical to the ones on the other side with the
>same name."
>
>in your just intonation version, i hear an out-of-tune consonance,
>right before 00:03 rolls around. it this because you're *not* using
>the pitches in parentheses on your lattice diagram? if so, is it that
>you're just using 13 different pitches for the just example, and for
>most of the others as well (except those with fewer pitches)? i this
>could be explained more clearly on your page, for the benefit of the
>listener -- one could read the above as possibly claiming that these
>non-identical pitches are actually used in your just intonation and
>other non-meantone renditions.

Yes, it should definitely say something about that on the page. Except for
the "adjusted" 5-limit JI version, which is hand-tweaked to choose the
appropriate notes according to context, the other tunings only use 13
different pitches. At the time, I was trying to find a way to automate the
"adjusted" versions, but I eventually gave up on that. Maybe some day I'll
give it another try. For now I'll just update the page to document what's
actually on there.

--
see my music page ---> ---<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--
hmiller (Herman Miller) "If all Printers were determin'd not to print any
@io.com email password: thing till they were sure it would offend no body,
\ "Subject: teamouse" / there would be very little printed." -Ben Franklin

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:10:48 -0000, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> >--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> >
> >hi herman,
> >
> >you wrote,
> >
> >"In just intonation, or other non-meantone tunings, the pitches on
> >one side are not identical to the ones on the other side with the
> >same name."
> >
> >in your just intonation version, i hear an out-of-tune consonance,
> >right before 00:03 rolls around. it this because you're *not*
using
> >the pitches in parentheses on your lattice diagram? if so, is it
that
> >you're just using 13 different pitches for the just example, and
for
> >most of the others as well (except those with fewer pitches)? i
this
> >could be explained more clearly on your page, for the benefit of
the
> >listener -- one could read the above as possibly claiming that
these
> >non-identical pitches are actually used in your just intonation
and
> >other non-meantone renditions.
>
> Yes, it should definitely say something about that on the page.
Except for
> the "adjusted" 5-limit JI version, which is hand-tweaked to choose
the
> appropriate notes according to context, the other tunings only use
13
> different pitches. At the time, I was trying to find a way to
automate the
> "adjusted" versions, but I eventually gave up on that. Maybe some
day I'll
> give it another try. For now I'll just update the page to document
what's
> actually on there.
>
> --
> see my music page ---> ---
<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--

thanks herman . . . i was going to ask you something else, but when i
went to the link above, i didn't see a link to the "warped princess"
page . . . where is it again?

>the other tunings only use 13
> different pitches. At the time, I was trying to find a way to
automate the
> "adjusted" versions

>the other tunings only use 13
>different pitches. At the time, I was trying to find a way to
automate the
>"adjusted" versions

Right now I am working on a 19-edo ska song for computer and soprano
trombone (adaptation of "Wrong way", by Sublime) It goes down 50/49
every two bars, and back up by 4/3 after 16 bars. (No wave file yet,
just a draft version of the midi file, without the 4/3 "bridging".)

The 2-bar pattern is :
1/1 major C D E F G A B C
10/7 (major chords of 10/7 and 49/50) F# Gb B Cb D# Eb F#
(49/50 major Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C)

comma shifts are handled (in scala) by saying :
0 transpose [80/81]

When the whole song is written in terms of just ratios enclosed in
brackets, changing the scale becomes easy.

Could a similar approach solve the problem you had with automatically
adjusting pitch?

7Kami ROUSSEAU
Go vote for adding microtonal support to the Java Sound API :
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4705306.html

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:56:39 -0000, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com> wrote:

>thanks herman . . . i was going to ask you something else, but when i
>went to the link above, i didn't see a link to the "warped princess"
>page . . . where is it again?

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:07:29 -0000, "kamikulture" <kamikulture@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>When the whole song is written in terms of just ratios enclosed in
>brackets, changing the scale becomes easy.
>
>Could a similar approach solve the problem you had with automatically
>adjusting pitch?

In this case, standard notation with the addition of commas would be
preferable to just ratios. In fact, one option that I was considering is to
write a program that would convert MIDI files to a readable, editable form
and back, but it'd only be worth the effort if I can use it for other
things, and I haven't been doing much with music the last few months. It's
been years since I did any programming related to MIDI files, and I'd have
to look up the file format. One of these days, if I start doing more
retunings, I might consider doing something like this.

hi Herman,

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:07:29 -0000, "kamikulture"
> <kamikulture@h...> wrote:
>
> > When the whole song is written in terms of just ratios
> > enclosed in brackets, changing the scale becomes easy.
> >
> > Could a similar approach solve the problem you had
> > with automatically adjusting pitch?
>
>
> In this case, standard notation with the addition of
> commas would be preferable to just ratios. In fact, one
> option that I was considering is to write a program that
> would convert MIDI files to a readable, editable form
> and back, but it'd only be worth the effort if I can use
> it for other things, and I haven't been doing much with music
> the last few months. It's been years since I did any
> programming related to MIDI files, and I'd have to look
> up the file format. One of these days, if I start doing
> more retunings, I might consider doing something like this.

i've been analyzing your _Warped Princess_ retunings with good
results using an old DOS program called "mf2t" (meaning
"MIDI-file to text") and Microsoft Excel.

mf2t creates a plain text-file from the MIDI-file. then i copy
the text file into an Excel spreadsheet, and then reformat the
data so that each parameter falls into a separate column in
the spreadsheet.

then i have some formulas which extract the 12edo-degree from
the MIDI-note number, convert that plus the cawapus (pitch-bend
values) into cents, and convert that same data into degrees of
any specified EDO.

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:07:29 -0000, "kamikulture" <kamikulture@h...>
> wrote:

> In this case, standard notation with the addition of commas would be
> preferable to just ratios. In fact, one option that I was considering is to
> write a program that would convert MIDI files to a readable, editable form
> and back, but it'd only be worth the effort if I can use it for other
> things, and I haven't been doing much with music the last few months.

Converting the midi file to a Csound score works pretty well.

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:56:39 -0000, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> >thanks herman . . . i was going to ask you something else, but
when i
> >went to the link above, i didn't see a link to the "warped
princess"
> >page . . . where is it again?
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/pavane.html

thanks! now i see both the 13-pitch, and the adjusted, JI versions.
might i suggest providing for a way to get to this from your
music/index page? also i couldn't find some of your other pages, try
as i might (see below) . . .

not to create more work for you, but it seems that you
could "consistently" create two or three versions for each of the
inconsistent ETs, depending on how you map the consonances. for
example, for 40 (which monz likes a lot) you could have a meantone
implementation, a diminished implementation (don't you have a webpage
on just such systems? they're all divisible by 4), and a wuerschmidt
implementation (with really wide fifths) . . .

herman miller for president!

On Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:03:03 -0000, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com> wrote:

>thanks! now i see both the 13-pitch, and the adjusted, JI versions.
>might i suggest providing for a way to get to this from your
>music/index page? also i couldn't find some of your other pages, try
>as i might (see below) . . .

No problem. I noticed that there weren't any links to the porcupine and
diminished temperament pages, so I also added those. I wonder what happened
to the augmented temperament page?

>not to create more work for you, but it seems that you
>could "consistently" create two or three versions for each of the
>inconsistent ETs, depending on how you map the consonances.

Actually, I already have a lot of these retuned versions (although they're
in Ab major, so I'd have to transpose them by hand before putting them up).
I wrote a program to create the tuning files that Midiconv uses for the
retuning; come to think of it, they were 22-note tuning files. I was
planning to do a hand-altered 22-note version that would automatically be
converted to the other tunings. But I never got around to finishing the
22-note version, so all I have are the 13-note tunings. I'll have to look
into this over the weekend and see how much trouble it would be to finish
the 22-note version, if there's any interest in these.

--
see my music page ---> ---<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--
hmiller (Herman Miller) "If all Printers were determin'd not to print any
@io.com email password: thing till they were sure it would offend no body,
\ "Subject: teamouse" / there would be very little printed." -Ben Franklin