"dynamic tonic"?

Hello!

I´m new to this list! I had been intuitively working with just
intonation for the past three years and today, for accident, i
landed here... I have taken a look at many of the previous posts,
trying to get used with the right -or most accepted- names used
around tuning, so i hope you will understand my question! :)

When traveling through the circle of fifths in the 12-tET, you land
again on the inicial note after 12 jumps... That won`t happen when
you are using JI.

Interested in this fact, i started building structures in reaktor3,
which periodically multiplied the reference frequency of a chord by
a simple just ratio (3/2 , 4/3 , 9/8) and took the result as the new
reference. -obviously i introduced an "autooctaver" which ensured
that the reference would not get out of a desired range.-

The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses the
need of remainig around a static tonality.

Does anyone know more about that? Is there a more correct way to
call this "dynamic tonic"?

Thanks
Kiko Mayorga

Kiko,

--- In tuning@y..., "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...> wrote:
> Hello!

Same!

You're into an interesting area, and two things came to mind...

> The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
> dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
> tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
> structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses the
> need of remainig around a static tonality.

That would certainly be my impression. Both with JI and various ETs and temperments, I find that many times I lose that wanting to home back in on one tonic. In fact, that is one of the reasons of getting away from 12tet (at least for me) - the ability to wander into new and valid (harmonic) territory, free from references to 'the past'.

> Does anyone know more about that? Is there a more correct way to
> call this "dynamic tonic"?

People may know 'more' about it, but you be the judge. As for terms, Monz will be a good arbiter and others will chime in. My two questions were:

1. Any relation to Lincoln M.? (sorry if you get asked this all the time...)

2. Any place we can hear some of this music? If not, there are places within the community that we can post mp3 files - the usual places, like mp3.com, the files area of a couple of lists, and some space for files at microtonal.org.

Love to hear some of your getting away from tonic...

Cheers,
Jon

> Does anyone know more about that? Is there a more correct way to
> call this "dynamic tonic"?

I don't think that there is much to theorize about this-it's a
psychological issue, related to the subjective effects of movement and
"tension".
I've done some similar things with Audiomulch though, using ring
modulation and granulators for transposing. If you use a sine wave,
you can use pretty much any intervals (non-just) because there are no
harmonic overtones to conflict with. So the distinction between
"several notes" and "partials" dissapear, so to speak. I am going to
put some of this material up when i am finished with it.

/Mats Öljare
http://oljare.iuma.com

hi Kiko and Jon,

> From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:40 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: "dynamic tonic"?
>

> Kiko,
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...> wrote:
> > Hello!
>
> Same!
>
> You're into an interesting area, and two things came to mind...
>
> > The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
> > dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
> > tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
> > structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses the
> > need of remainig around a static tonality.
>
> That would certainly be my impression. Both with JI and various
> ETs and temperments, I find that many times I lose that wanting
> to home back in on one tonic. In fact, that is one of the reasons
> of getting away from 12tet (at least for me) - the ability to
> wander into new and valid (harmonic) territory, free from
> references to 'the past'.
>
> > Does anyone know more about that? Is there a more correct way to
> > call this "dynamic tonic"?
>
> People may know 'more' about it, but you be the judge. As for terms,
> Monz will be a good arbiter and others will chime in. <snip>

OK, here i am!

one thing that i thought of right away from Kiko's description
is "commatic drift" -- when singers sing in strict JI and the
fact that the 2nd degree of the diatonic scale has to be tuned
one way to be consonant with the II chord and another way
(a syntonic comma higher) to be consonant with the V chord.

some folks around here (paul erlich comes to mind immediately)
are extremely bothered by commatic drift ... others, like myself,
tend to not mind it much, depending mostly on how long is the
time frame in which it happens, i.e., if the musical phrase is
long enough i won't really notice it.

anyway, i agree with Jon that this flexibility of "reference"
is one of the nice things about working in JI.

Kiko, how about a more detailed description of what you're
doing, along with links to the audio?

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"
/tuning/files/monzo/homepage.html

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> some folks around here (paul erlich comes to mind immediately)
> are extremely bothered by commatic drift ... others, like myself,
> tend to not mind it much, depending mostly on how long is the
> time frame in which it happens, i.e., if the musical phrase is
> long enough i won't really notice it.

It depends on the size of the drift--it's pretty hard to get worked up over a commatic drift less than a cent, and things of that sort happen very naturally in 7 or higher limits. Of course if you keep drifting in the same direction you're bound to notice eventually.

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> OK, here i am!
>
> one thing that i thought of right away from Kiko's description
> is "commatic drift" -- when singers sing in strict JI and the
> fact that the 2nd degree of the diatonic scale has to be tuned
> one way to be consonant with the II chord and another way
> (a syntonic comma higher) to be consonant with the V chord.
>
> some folks around here (paul erlich comes to mind immediately)
> are extremely bothered by commatic drift ...

hi monz --

hate to be a stickler but what you're describing here is a commatic
shift, not commatic drift. commatic drift is what would happen if you
tried to use only one tuning for the 2nd degree, say if it were a
melody note holding over from the ii chord to the V chord, but tuned
the other degrees to form ji chords with it. this would result in the
tonic itself drifting, usually downward by several commas over the
course of a typical composition.

Hi Jon and Monz,

Jon

i was explaining..
> > > The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
> > > dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
> > > tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
> > > structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses
the
> > > need of remainig around a static tonality.

then Jon..
> > That would certainly be my impression. Both with JI and various
> > ETs and temperments, I find that many times I lose that wanting
> > to home back in on one tonic. In fact, that is one of the reasons
> > of getting away from 12tet (at least for me) - the ability to
> > wander into new and valid (harmonic) territory, free from
> > references to 'the past'.

Yeah... with JI one finds no limits when dinamically travelling
through new harmonic spaces..
I remember having made some long recordings which made harmonic sense
when listened linearly, but were surprisingly out of tune when
reproduced as randomly ordered sections. There are great
possibilities when playing around with dynamic reference, modulations
and short time memory!

and monz..

> one thing that i thought of right away from Kiko's description
> is "commatic drift" -- when singers sing in strict JI and the
> fact that the 2nd degree of the diatonic scale has to be tuned
> one way to be consonant with the II chord and another way
> (a syntonic comma higher) to be consonant with the V chord.
>
> some folks around here (paul erlich comes to mind immediately)
> are extremely bothered by commatic drift ... others, like myself,
> tend to not mind it much, depending mostly on how long is the
> time frame in which it happens, i.e., if the musical phrase is
> long enough i won't really notice it.
>

Ok.. if enough time passes between modulations, you won´t notice the
accumulatory effect of using "commadic drifts" or not, but that also
depends on the complexity of the factors involved in the successive
modulations.
Fifths won`t cause big problems.. but i`m shure that other iterative
tempered modulations applied to the tonic don`t work that well, in
comparisson to just modulations...

> Kiko, how about a more detailed description of what you're
> doing, along with links to the audio?

Shure! I`m uploading some tracks to mp3.com
I`ll let you know.
I`ll make another more detailed post on arithmetic and geometric
aproach to harmony..

Hi Jon,

to your questions...

> 1. Any relation to Lincoln M.? (sorry if you get asked this all the
time...)

Don`t worry.. You are the first one.
As far as i know, i have no relation to him....
But who is Lincoln M. ????

> 2. Any place we can hear some of this music? If not, there are
places within the community that we can post mp3 files - the usual
places, like mp3.com, the files area of a couple of lists, and some
space for files at microtonal.org.

well... i`m uploading such a recursively modulating track to mp3.com-
i think that will take some time... But if you like, i have some
other less experimental JI tracks at
www.mp3.com/qeako (2001 - 2002)
www.mp3.com/sqwaellox (2000)

>
> Love to hear some of your getting away from tonic...
>
Let`s leave the static space!

Cheers
Kiko

K,

--- In tuning@y..., "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...> wrote:
> Don`t worry.. You are the first one.
> As far as i know, i have no relation to him....
> But who is Lincoln M. ????

In the era before (commercial) digital recording, Lincoln Mayorga became a 'famous' name because he decided to produce a certain kind of audiophile recording: for the label Sheffield Labs, Mayorga would assemble a group and do a "direct-to-disc" recording. Mind you, this is some collection of musicians, ready to start recording, and when they start, they can't stop for the 22 or so minutes while the machine is actually cutting grooves into Side 1 of the master disc.

And, indeed, they did yield some incredible performances, both sonically and musically. Often they were cutting edge jazz or pop groups, or top-notch classical players; imagine working on your rep, and then sitting there and *knowing* there was no "Take 2", no "cut and paste", no "hey guys, I muffed a note in the bridge". What you hear is what you get.

If you ever come across some of those LPs, they really are worth a listen!

> Let`s leave the static space!

Elvis has left the building. Speaking of which, just this morning I popped into my favorite used book shop, where the cooking section is next to the music section. They have a part of a shelf for Elvis, and oddly it's next to cooking. And, lo and behold, there was a collection of EP's favorite recipes.

I kid you not: the title was "Are You Hungry Tonight?"

I'm going back and pick it up for $3 tomorrow...

Cheers,
Jon (who apologizes for the OT nature of the post...)

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Jon Szanto wrote:

[snip]

> Jon (who apologizes for the OT nature of the post...)

Phil Ochs fans (such as myself) will also recognize the name Lincoln
Mayorga as a collaborator on some of Phil's later recordings.

Need a new trombone? Buy now -- don't let it slide.

Hello kikomayorga, Jon, Mats, monz, wallyesterpaulrus, and all,

I have a couple of questions in regard to this "dynamic tonic":

(1) Can you tell me whether and how much is "extended reference" related to=
this question of "dynamic tonic"?

(2) Also, improvisation in raga music involves moving from the 'Sa', to th=
e sonant (vadi), and consonant (samvadi). We stay on, emphasise, repeat, wea=
ve patterns around, these vadi and samvadi long enough to keep away from 'Sa=
' for quite a long time. Does this result in
'extended reference'/dynamic tonic drift?

Thank you all in advance and in anticipation,
Haresh.

-------- original messages --------------------------------------
From: "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...>
Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 10:59 pm
i started building structures in reaktor3,
which periodically multiplied the reference frequency of a chord by
a simple just ratio (3/2 , 4/3 , 9/8) and took the result as the new
reference. -obviously i introduced an "autooctaver" which ensured
that the reference would not get out of a desired range.-

The chords were made up of randomly selected harmonics of the
dynamic reference frequency, which i started to call "dynamic
tonic". I have the impression that when listening to such a
structure, one starts expecting further modulations, and looses the
need of remainig around a static tonality.
------------------------
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:40 pm

That would certainly be my impression. Both with JI and various ETs and tem=
perments, I find that many times I lose that wanting to home back in on one =
tonic.
-------------------------
From: Mats Öljare <oljare@h...>
Date: Sun Oct 13, 2002 11:40 pm
I don't think that there is much to theorize about this-it's a
psychological issue, related to the subjective effects of movement and
"tension".
---------------------------
From: "monz" <monz@a...>
Date: Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:34 am

one thing that i thought of right away from Kiko's description
is "commatic drift" -- when singers sing in strict JI and the
fact that the 2nd degree of the diatonic scale has to be tuned
one way to be consonant with the II chord and another way
(a syntonic comma higher) to be consonant with the V chord.
------------------------------
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
Date: Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:20 pm
hate to be a stickler but what you're describing here is a commatic
shift, not commatic drift. commatic drift is what would happen if you
tried to use only one tuning for the 2nd degree, say if it were a
melody note holding over from the ii chord to the V chord, but tuned
the other degrees to form ji chords with it. this would result in the
tonic itself drifting, usually downward by several commas over the
course of a typical composition.
-----------------------------
From: "kikomayorga" <kikomayorga@y...>
Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:03 pm

Yeah... with JI one finds no limits when dinamically travelling
through new harmonic spaces..
I remember having made some long recordings which made harmonic sense
when listened linearly, but were surprisingly out of tune when
reproduced as randomly ordered sections. There are great
possibilities when playing around with dynamic reference, modulations
and short time memory!
-------------------------------