Hooouull Toouun...

It appears that the japanese Whole Tone keyboard is getting a very bad
reception on this list, and i have to agree. I really don't understand
why the thing was made. Who is it meant for?

It's unlikely to become part of any music education, and keyboardists
won't be interested because they have to relearn, and the Whole Tone
keyboard doesn't offer any new possibilities, technical or aural.
But most of all, because there already is an alternative, generalized
12TET keyboard system that is clearly superior yet similar enough to
the Whole Tone layout-that of the chromatic button accordion. With
horizontally placed minor thirds in three rows, instead of a mere two
rows of whole-tones.

Didn't anybody there even think about this? Or are they deliberately
fooling players into an inferior "new" keyboard that actually offers
nothing?
/Ö

re:
http://lumma.org/stuff/01.ram

> From: "Mats �ljare" <oljare@hotmail.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:04 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Hooouull Toouun...
>
>
> It appears that the japanese Whole Tone keyboard is getting
> a very bad reception on this list, and i have to agree.
> I really don't understand why the thing was made. Who is
> it meant for?
>
> It's unlikely to become part of any music education,
> and keyboardists won't be interested because they have
> to relearn, and the Whole Tone keyboard doesn't offer any
> new possibilities, technical or aural. But most of all,
> because there already is an alternative, generalized
> 12TET keyboard system that is clearly superior yet similar
> enough to the Whole Tone layout-that of the chromatic button
> accordion. With horizontally placed minor thirds in three
> rows, instead of a mere two rows of whole-tones.
>
> Didn't anybody there even think about this? Or are they
> deliberately fooling players into an inferior "new" keyboard
> that actually offers nothing?

the Japanese "whole-tone keyboard" is actually not new at
all. it's merely anadaptation of the keyboard designed by
von Janko nearly a century ago.

it has the advantage of being generalized for 12edo, and
i suppose for any multiple of 12 as well.

here's one link i found:
http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/janko.htm

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"

>It appears that the japanese Whole Tone keyboard is getting a
>very bad reception on this list, and i have to agree.

I think it rocks.

>It's unlikely to become part of any music education, and
>keyboardists won't be interested because they have to relearn,
>and the Whole Tone keyboard doesn't offer any new possibilities,
>technical or aural.

Untrue. The shrinking of the octave alone, not to mention the
changing of almost all the basic fingerings, adds (and subtracts)
an incalculable amount from the capabilities of the keyboard as
we know it.

>But most of all, because there already is an alternative,
>generalized 12TET keyboard system that is clearly superior
>yet similar enough to the Whole Tone layout-that of the
>chromatic button accordion. With horizontally placed minor
>thirds in three rows, instead of a mere two rows of whole-tones.

How is it "clearly superior"? For sure, the chromatic accordion
is cool, but it doesn't usually cover 6 octaves, for starters.

-Carl

> >But most of all, because there already is an alternative,
> >generalized 12TET keyboard system that is clearly superior
> >yet similar enough to the Whole Tone layout-that of the
> >chromatic button accordion. With horizontally placed minor
> >thirds in three rows, instead of a mere two rows of whole-tones.
>
> How is it "clearly superior"? For sure, the chromatic accordion
> is cool, but it doesn't usually cover 6 octaves, for starters.

Improved reach for the single hand, easier learning, and the full
generalized symmetry that the WTK also has.

The whole tone system was considered by several accordion
manufacturers when chromatic accordions first came out, (as well as
the piano keyboard which is still made today) but the minor third
system ruled it out completely. In fact a whole tone keyboard for
accordions was resurrected in the 50's or 60's but even though plenty
of players tried, nobody fell for it.

Have you ever talked to an accordion player about this? Most button
players would be able to show you in a minute many things that cannot
be played on the piano keyboard, and even many piano accordion players
admit that the minor third button system is better.

I do not think there is such a critical difference between the
accordion and horizontally placed keyboards, touch sensitive or not.
It is a mere mechanical reason pianos were not built that way, which
technology has long since gone bye. Players can only benefit from
having the same system and the minor third system is one that already
is in use-on accordions.
Your responses suggest that you actually own a WTK or similar, or at
least have tried one? I'd love to hear exactly how much it "improves"
performance.

/Mats Öljare
Open minded pianist

> The whole tone system was considered by several accordion
> manufacturers when chromatic accordions first came out, (as well
> as the piano keyboard which is still made today) but the minor
> third system ruled it out completely. In fact a whole tone
> keyboard for accordions was resurrected in the 50's or 60's but
> even though plenty of players tried, nobody fell for it.

Hans Palm doesn't seem to think it's so bad...

http://www.accordionpage.com/treble.html

> Have you ever talked to an accordion player about this?

No.

My grandfather was a professional button box player. I inherited
two of his instruments, but the keyboard system is very strange
indeed. So when I went to play with some friends in high school,
I purchased a piano-keyboard accordion. I've never actually
seen a chromatic accordion, as they are fairly rare in the States.

>Your responses suggest that you actually own a WTK or similar,
>or at least have tried one? I'd love to hear exactly how much
>it "improves" performance.

I have played a WTK piano. As a person with some facility on the
Halberstadt, I found it exceedingly difficult, but some of its
potential was demonstrated to me.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., Mats Öljare <oljare@h...> wrote:
>
> > >But most of all, because there already is an alternative,
> > >generalized 12TET keyboard system that is clearly superior
> > >yet similar enough to the Whole Tone layout-that of the
> > >chromatic button accordion. With horizontally placed minor
> > >thirds in three rows, instead of a mere two rows of whole-tones.
> >
[Carl Lumma:]
> > How is it "clearly superior"? For sure, the chromatic accordion
> > is cool, but it doesn't usually cover 6 octaves, for starters.
>
> Improved reach for the single hand, easier learning, and the full
> generalized symmetry that the WTK also has.

The chromatic accordion treble keyboard can cover over 5 octaves
(compared to ~3.3 octaves for a piano-accordion keyboard). If you
were to use one on an electronic keyboard instrument, it wouldn't
have to be as long and bulky as one with a conventional keyboard. So
it does have a distinct advantage.

> The whole tone system was considered by several accordion
> manufacturers when chromatic accordions first came out, (as well as
> the piano keyboard which is still made today) but the minor third
> system ruled it out completely. In fact a whole tone keyboard for
> accordions was resurrected in the 50's or 60's but even though
plenty
> of players tried, nobody fell for it.
>
> Have you ever talked to an accordion player about this? Most button
> players would be able to show you in a minute many things that
cannot
> be played on the piano keyboard, and even many piano accordion
players
> admit that the minor third button system is better.

But that's not true if you make a mirror image of it and put it on
the left side of the instrument, in which configuration it becomes
the "bassetti" free bass system. Without the use of the thumb, the
fingering patterns are very clumsy, and it takes a lot of practice to
play smoothly. It found a market because it enabled a player to do
things that couldn't be done on a conventional bass-and-chord
(Stradella) button system.

A much better left-hand accordion layout is the Moschino free bass
system, in which the rows have buttons a *major third* apart, and
which has an even closer octave distance than the bassetti system. I
have a diagram my modified Bosanquet accordion button proposal with
it:

/tuning-
math/files/secor/kbds/BassComp.gif

In the Moschino system (lower half of diagram), the low notes are at
the left (whereas on a diagram of the bassetti system they would be
at the *right*, since it is a *mirror image* of the chromatic
keyboard). It should be noted that, in my generalized modified
Bosanquet proposal in the upper half of the diagram, the octaves are
approximately the same distance apart as they are on the bassetti
system. Further information for both of these was given in an
earlier message:

/tuning/topicId_38076.html#38287

It is important to note that the arrangements of buttons in these two
systems work well *only* for the left hand, and they are intended to
simplify the fingering in a situation in which the thumb cannot be
used.

> I do not think there is such a critical difference between the
> accordion and horizontally placed keyboards, touch sensitive or not.

I agree.

> It is a mere mechanical reason pianos were not built that way, which
> technology has long since gone bye.

The piano inherited its keyboard from the harpsichord, clavichord,
and organ, and by the time it appeared the keyboard was too well
established for a new proposal to be considered practical. (After
all, how many people would be willing to carry their own special
piano around with them?) So even if the mechanism for a chromatic
layout were not a problem, it still wouldn't have happened.

It is the accordion's portability that makes innovations in that
instrument much more practical.

> Players can only benefit from
> having the same system and the minor third system is one that
already
> is in use-on accordions.

But what we need now is a *keyboard* (singular) that will benefit
players who wish to use alternative tuning *systems* (plural), not
another *keyboard* (singlar) for *12-ET* (singular). I think it
would be more in our interest to advocate a Bosanquet keyboard on the
accordion and elsewhere. A chromatic keyboard is not going to make
alternative tuning systems more practical, nor will the experience of
learning 12-ET on a chromatic keyboard enable anyone to play any
alternative tuning systems that have other than 12 tones in the
octave.

--George

In a message dated 10/14/02 2:43:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
gdsecor@yahoo.com writes:

> what we need now is a *keyboard* (singular) that will benefit
> players who wish to use alternative tuning *systems* (plural), not
> another *keyboard* (singlar) for *12-ET* (singular).

George,

The Phillips JI and JT scales I posted here will play on a regualr keyboard,
providing 12 small split digitals--5 black keys above and 7 white keys
below--are added. And if one uses more than one keyboard, preferably three.

Sincerely,
Pauline W. Phillips, Moderator, <A HREF="/JohannusOrgansSchool ">Johannus Organs eSchool</A>
Johannus Orgelbouw, Holland, builds pipe, pipe-digital, digital-sampled
organs.
Moderator, <A HREF="/JustIntonationOrganSchool/">Just Intonation Organ eSchool</A>

The Japanese Whole Tone Keyboard has one advantage you haven't
mentioned, though. It's actually being produced. It's not
just "vapor-ware".

Grant :^)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> re:
> http://lumma.org/stuff/01.ram
>
> > From: "Mats Öljare" <oljare@h...>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:04 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Hooouull Toouun...
> >
> >
> > It appears that the japanese Whole Tone keyboard is getting
> > a very bad reception on this list, and i have to agree.
> > I really don't understand why the thing was made. Who is
> > it meant for?
> >
> > It's unlikely to become part of any music education,
> > and keyboardists won't be interested because they have
> > to relearn, and the Whole Tone keyboard doesn't offer any
> > new possibilities, technical or aural. But most of all,
> > because there already is an alternative, generalized
> > 12TET keyboard system that is clearly superior yet similar
> > enough to the Whole Tone layout-that of the chromatic button
> > accordion. With horizontally placed minor thirds in three
> > rows, instead of a mere two rows of whole-tones.
> >
> > Didn't anybody there even think about this? Or are they
> > deliberately fooling players into an inferior "new" keyboard
> > that actually offers nothing?
>
>
> the Japanese "whole-tone keyboard" is actually not new at
> all. it's merely anadaptation of the keyboard designed by
> von Janko nearly a century ago.
>
> it has the advantage of being generalized for 12edo, and
> i suppose for any multiple of 12 as well.
>
> here's one link i found:
> http://www.pianoworld.com/fun/janko.htm
>
>
>
>
> -monz
> "all roads lead to n^0"

now where does this thread come from? i see exactly one message...

don't know nothing about the janko connection (the geography kind of fits), but 6+6 is the layout of the salzburg dulcimer, and for the last decade or so a harpist from styria, christoph pampuch, has been playing a harp built the same way: two planes of whole tone scales intersecting at an angle (well, how else). the principle seems to have been invented by a french harp manufacturer, henri pape, in the 1840s. his design flopped; people at that time weren't much into simplicity. and simple it is. i once had a chance to noodle on a salzburg dulcimer, and once you notice the sequences of 3 strings from one plane and 4 from the other, every diatonic music is as easy as pie. pianos may well be a different story, but for the mechanics of playing dulcimers and harps i think this setup is perfect.

and for microtonal music, it's hardly less logical than 5+7 :O)

klaus

>now where does this thread come from? i see exactly one message...

It's old. I think Jon Szanto created that subject line, maybe
even on metatuning.

I posted the link there (or here) in 2001. As I pointed out then,
but monz seems to forget, is that this keyboard is as limited
with respect to 12/oct as conventional keyboards, since it only
*has* 12 keys / oct (the duplicates are physically joined). It
has no advantage for "multiples of 12", or anything like that.

Because the keys are narrower, the octaves are narrower, so one
could more easily reach chords in larger tunings (and of course,
you have more positions to choose from to reach a given chord).

If the duplicates were really independent keys, it would have no
bias for any particular tuning at all.

-Carl