Carrillo

Subject: [tuning] new temperament on the cyberblock
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>
Reply-To: tuning@onelist.com
To: tuning@onelist.com

Dear Jay,
I would like to take you up on your offer of advice for tuning pianos a
quarter tone apart. I am hoping that it will help me to eventually tune
6 pianos 16.66 cents apart to create a 72-tET. Right now I use a SEIKO
tuner to get 6 synths approxiately 1/6 of the semitone apart.

By the way, as I put together a webpage devoted to the 72 tone equal
temperament, Julian Carrillo's name crops up. Do you know anything more
about his music or theories?
RT

From: Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>

Jay Williams here,
I just subscribed, so thought I'd introduce myself.
I have a Master's degree from Indiana University in trombone and music
theory. I compose music, mostly electronic, and have made most of my
livings
as a piano technician, electronics technician and performer, in that
order.
Naturally, I'm fascinated by the sounds of different tunings and have
had
the fun of doing some of them. (If anyone needs advice on how to get two

pianos to be a reliable quarter-tone apart and don't already know a
reference for same, I can tell you how.)
Possibly, the most extravagant temperament accomplishment I witnessed
was
when Pietro Grossi, who taught at Indiana in 1966, proudly demonstrated
to
us his 118-tone-per-octave equal temperament. I also had the fun of
playing
on a sort of square piano with normally spaced keys, 96 of them covering
an
octave. This was designed for Julian Carillo's music.
I discovered this list via the PTG site.
Cheers

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Jay here,
Okay, Rick, here goes. Of course, ya gotta start by having a well-tuned
piano at standard pitch in order to make oral comparissons. First, I tune
the C on the "flat" piano so that it beats _just perceptibly slower with the
B on the standard-pitch (sp) piano than with the latter's C. Then I tune a
normal 12-tet, bearing in mind that all the intervals should beat an iota
slower on the "qt" piano. Now comes the fun oral test.
On the sp piano you play an ascending chromatic sequence of falling major
seconds: d-c e flat-d-flat, e-d, etc. Simultaneously, on the qt piano, you
play an ascending chromatic sequence of rising minor thirds: c-e flat, c
sharp-e, d-f, etc. If you got the two pianos spaced right, you'll hear this
unmistakably consisten interval, five quarter-tones wide, ascending by
quarter-tones. The stereo effect of the two pianos provides an odd sorta
focus that makes wee variations very obvious.
Of course, you tune just one octave's worth for this test and, once you've
at least hit the ball park, you crank the octave on the qt piano down five
or six hertz so that, when you finish lowering the pitch in the rough
tuning, the thing will be within striking distance of the needed pitch.
As to Carillo's music, when I was at Indiana U. in Bloomington in the late
'60's, there was a well-stocked Latin American Music Center supervised by
the composer, Juan Orrego-Sallas. They had tons of his stuff in their tape
library. I'd start looking there although no doubt, things have changed over
the years.
Nonesuch Records put out a recording of his Mass for Pope John XXIII in the
'70's. I don't know if it's been reissued on CD, but I'd be glad to sendja a
tape of it. To hear a chorus tackle music in 1/6th tone temperament is truly
awesome, and the work is certainly powerful.
At 12:40 PM 7/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>From: Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@earthlink.net>
>
>Subject: [tuning] new temperament on the cyberblock
>Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>
>Reply-To: tuning@onelist.com
>To: tuning@onelist.com
>
>Dear Jay,
>I would like to take you up on your offer of advice for tuning pianos a
>quarter tone apart. I am hoping that it will help me to eventually tune
>6 pianos 16.66 cents apart to create a 72-tET. Right now I use a SEIKO
>tuner to get 6 synths approxiately 1/6 of the semitone apart.
>
>By the way, as I put together a webpage devoted to the 72 tone equal
>temperament, Julian Carrillo's name crops up. Do you know anything more
>about his music or theories?
>RT
>
>From: Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>

>Cheers
>
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>
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>http://www.onelist.com
>Join a new list today!
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>
>

To: tuning@onelist.com
From: Jay Williams <jaywill@utah-inter.net>
Send reply to: tuning@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Carrillo

> Nonesuch Records put out a recording of his Mass for Pope John XXIII in the
> '70's. I don't know if it's been reissued on CD, but I'd be glad to sendja a
> tape of it. To hear a chorus tackle music in 1/6th tone temperament is truly
> awesome, and the work is certainly powerful.

Actually, the Julian Carrillo Mass for Pope John XXIII was issued on
LP by CRI, not Nonesuch, and has yet to be re-issued. There was
also a Philips LP featuring a Piano Concerto in 1/3 tones (18 ET)
and the remarkable Preludio a Cristobol Colon composed in the
1920s and featuring instruments capable of increments up to 1/16
tones (96 ET). Eleven years ago at the Ricordi Store in Mexico
City DF, I picked up a bunch of locally-produced cassettes
featuring many other works of his, among them a very impressive
1/4 tone string quartet and an earth shattering work called
Balbuceos for orchestra (in 12 ET) and 96-tone piano soloist. The
whole piano does not even reach an octave!! A glissando played
on it sounds like a pure poramento glissando!

Someone should really get behind a full scale CD re-issue of these
important recordings.

Frank J. Oteri
American Music Center

Frank J. Oteri
Editor and Publisher
NewMusicBox
The Web Magazine of the American Music Center
http://www.newmusicbox.org

AMERICAN MUSIC CENTER
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>By the way, as I put together a webpage devoted to the 72 tone equal
>temperament, Julian Carrillo's name crops up. Do you know anything more
>about his music or theories?

The best introduction to Carillo is:

Benjamin, Gerald R. "Juli�n Carrillo and 'sonido trece'", Yearbook,
Inter-American Institute for Musical Research vol. 3, 1967, pp. 33-68.

Jerry Benjamin (gbenjami@trinity.edu) is the leading scholar on Carillo,
and also authored the Groves Dictionary article, I believe. Carillo was a
Mexican composer who worked in a variety of equal divisions of the
semitone. His first experiments with quartertones were back in 1895, I
think, making him one of the earliest modern microtonal composers. He wrote
for a variety of microtonal harps, guitars, and other fixed-pitch
instruments in addition to writing for microtonal voice and unfretted
strings. Towards the end of his life, a European company manufactured a
series of pianos from 24 to 96TET for him, though I don't know what
happened to them. He wrote some theoretical works, but I don't know if
they've ever been translated to English.

Bill

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bill: Carrillo's major work on his system has been translated by
Patricia Smith at UCSD as her MA thesis. I have a copy and I think it
would be available from UCSD by interlibrary loan. Carrillo's daughter
Dolores carries on the Cruzada Por Sonido Trece from the family home in
San Angel, a suburb of Mexico City. I'm at a meeting on the origin of
life all week, but remind me around Friday or saturday and I'll try to
get some more information together and post it.

As far as I know, the "pianos metamorfeadores" are still at the Carrillo
home in Mexico. I saw them there around 1980, though Lolita C has taken
the 16th tone piano on tour.

I don't JC ever composed in 72, except possibly some unrecorded studies.
He concentrated on 18, 24, 48 and 96. However, his daughter made up an
example tape with all of them.

--JOhn

As I've learned from Carrillo enthusiasts in Mexico, Julian Carrillo's
daughter Dolores passed away last year. There are no close relatives alive
any longer.

I met Dolores through the late Jean-Etienne Marie in Nice, France. At the
time, Mr. Marie had the 96-TET Carrillo piano. Now it is located in a
special microtonal keyboard room curated by Alain Bancquart in the Paris
Conservatory, newly built (the conservatory that is).

Johnny Reinhard
Afmmjr@aol.com

How wonderful to talk about Carrillo!

I had a wonderful meeting with his daughter in Nice, France. Her faculties
were sharp in her nineties. Jean-
Etienne Marie set it up. No one speaks of him on the List, but he was
microtonality in southern France for half a century, including eighthtones and
thirdtones, perhaps more in his electronic music, regularly on the radio.

Tony, I think you mean Bruce Mather in Montreal. I'll send you his address
directly. I hadn't heard about his poor upbringing. How did he earn his
reputed wealth? I know there was some question about whether he was exclusively
European or at least part Native Mexican, but she said there was no Native
Mexican in him at all. I know there are streets named after Carrillo, and
there was a postage stamp. And there is the Carrillo violin prize at the Paris
Conservatory, where Alain Bancquart has other Carrillo pianos.

Kraig, since composers are human beings they show all the pettiness of human
beings. One could connect most any creative artist with a bad relationship.
Sometimes it is earned and sometimes it is cultural. In some ways Wagner
was scum. But that doesn't mean I would ban his music, nor could I deride it
as inferior. It is amazing 12-tET music. I was thinking of making a list of
all the scandals, but that would be quite a rag!

As for Partch and Carrillo, they were clearly competitors. In Genesis there
is mention of Carrillo but not much on an idea of microtonality, unless it
is the fabric of his monophony. Werckmeister's family and the Bach family
didn't name each other even though they were all quite famous to each other and
truly from neighboring cities.

Why is it one can speak easily with one person and not with another? Could
be lack of one of the defining intelligences of Howard Gardner, interpersonal
skills? Some people have it, and some people are afraid of those who have
it. Some just want to judge the music alone, at least to the degree possible.
I know of no music composed by Novarro, let alone recorded by Novarro. If
his family is withholding the materials, that is the true scandal.

best, Johnny

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>

I am quite aware of what composers are and have experience like
situations, more often than i care to discuss. It is a scandal in the
second place and is truly a lost.
Possible the point of bringing it up is that music is lost and
possibly great music too. All for reasons that have nothing to do with
the work itself.

Novaro was forced not to publish his book, bottom line. i recognize
there are two sides of this story we may never figure out.

You seem not to object to bringing up Partch's bad relationships, why
are you having trouble with this?

For the record i quite enjoy Carillo's music.

> Kraig, since composers are human beings they show all the pettiness
of human
> beings. One could connect most any creative artist with a bad
relationship.

> I know of no music composed by Novarro, let alone recorded by
Novarro. If
> his family is withholding the materials, that is the true scandal.