Re: [tuning] Preference testing between JI and EQT, 1/4 MT and EQT - 300 teen...

In a message dated 9/11/02 11:13:02 AM Central Daylight Time,
ASCEND11@AOL.COM writes:

> a phrase
> containing a prominent melodic drop of a minor third would tend to
> be preferred more in the just version (m3 wider in just),

Dave,

This is because the just descending scale minor 3rd (316 cents) from just G
is E 386 cents. And a good ear can tell 400 cents makes too small a minor 3rd
(302 cents).

while > a phrase with an emphasized step up from a fifth to a major sixth
> above a root note would have a tendency to be preferred in the
> equal temperament version as sounding more expressive or emotional.
>
This is becasue the interval 906 cents (27/16) is the natural note in the
just ascending scale. Those who try to make a just C scale with A as 884
cents are actually creating the F just scale! C has no low order pitch any
way near 884 cents. And any attempt to make it so is arbitarary. The scale I
posted here a few days ago shows the proper relationship between intervals in
the C scale, whether ascending or descending.

Sincerely,
Pauline W. Phillips,
Moderator, <A HREF="/JustIntonationOrganSchool/">Just Intonation Organ eSchool</A>

hi Pauline,

> From: <prophecyspirit@aol.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Preference testing between JI and EQT, 1/4 MT and
EQT - 300 teen...
>

> In a message dated 9/11/02 11:13:02 AM Central Daylight Time,
> ASCEND11@AOL.COM writes:
>
>
> > a phrase
> > containing a prominent melodic drop of a minor third would tend to
> > be preferred more in the just version (m3 wider in just),
>
> Dave,
>
> This is because the just descending scale minor 3rd (316 cents) from just
G
> is E 386 cents. And a good ear can tell 400 cents makes too small a minor
3rd
> (302 cents).
>
> > while a phrase with an emphasized step up from a fifth to a major sixth
> > above a root note would have a tendency to be preferred in the
> > equal temperament version as sounding more expressive or emotional.
>
> This is becasue the interval 906 cents (27/16) is the natural note in the
> just ascending scale. Those who try to make a just C scale with A as 884
> cents are actually creating the F just scale! C has no low order pitch any
> way near 884 cents. And any attempt to make it so is arbitarary. The scale
I
> posted here a few days ago shows the proper relationship between intervals
in
> the C scale, whether ascending or descending.
>
> Sincerely,
> Pauline W. Phillips,
> Moderator,
> <A HREF="/JustIntonationOrganSchool/">
> Just Intonation Organ eSchool</A>

by what criteria do you determine that "a good ear can tell 400 cents makes
too small a minor 3rd" and "the proper relationship between intervals in
the C scale"?

most subscribers to this list have their own tuning preferences,
based on a vast variety of conditions, and most of us have learned
not to write about absolute values as you have (using such terminology
as "too small" or "proper relationship between intervals") lest we
offend someone else's sensibilities.

please tell us more about your determinations of these absolute properties.

for the record, i agree with you that a JI scale where C=1/1 which
uses 27/16 for A works better *as a scale* than the one which uses
5/3 for A (and which usually masquerades as the so-called "just scale").
but there certainly are instances where 5/3 would be the prefered tuning
for that note, hence my resistance about your use of absolute terms.

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"

In a message dated 9/11/02 1:26:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
monz@attglobal.net writes:

> by what criteria do you determine that "a good ear can tell 400 cents makes
> too small a minor 3rd" and "the proper relationship between intervals in
> the C scale"?

monz,

I was referring to the just natural series of partials found in any regular
musical sound by non-percission musical instruments. E 386 cents is 5/4, and
400 cents at 63/50 (1173 - 772) is so much higher.The harmonic minor 7th for
D 204 cents is 1173 cents. That - 400 cents is G# at 772 cents. Which is the
just major 3rd above E 386 cents.

I showed in the scale I posted, the natural, and thus right, way to create a
scale is based on the harmonic series of partials, rather than creating one
using arbitarary just intervals selected at random. In the natural just C
scale F is the harmonic minor 7th of G at 471 cents (21/16). But since the
Subdominant IV chord at +/- 498 cnets is common in Western music, The F just
scale is also needed. And in some music the G just scale is needed also. And
sometimes a flatted scale. Thus, as I said, a three-keyboard instrument is
needed. Key-signature stops select the tuning needed for a given piece.

Sincerely,
Pauline W. Phillips,
Moderator, <A HREF="/JustIntonationOrganSchool/">Just Intonation Organ eSchool</A>

hi Pauline,

> From: <prophecyspirit@aol.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Preference testing between JI and EQT, 1/4 MT and
EQT - 300 teen...
>

> In a message dated 9/11/02 1:26:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
> monz@attglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > by what criteria do you determine that "a good ear can tell 400 cents
makes
> > too small a minor 3rd" and "the proper relationship between intervals in
> > the C scale"?
>
> monz,
>
> I was referring to the just natural series of partials found in any
regular
> musical sound by non-percission musical instruments. E 386 cents is 5/4,
and
> 400 cents at 63/50 (1173 - 772) is so much higher.The harmonic minor 7th
for
> D 204 cents is 1173 cents. That - 400 cents is G# at 772 cents. Which is
the
> just major 3rd above E 386 cents.

hmmm ... partials, eh? ... i thought you were referring to scales.
the two are not *necessarily* the same!

> I showed in the scale I posted, the natural, and thus right, way to create
a
> scale is based on the harmonic series of partials, rather than creating
one
> using arbitarary just intervals selected at random. In the natural just C
> scale F is the harmonic minor 7th of G at 471 cents (21/16). But since the
> Subdominant IV chord at +/- 498 cnets is common in Western music, The F
just
> scale is also needed. And in some music the G just scale is needed also.
And
> sometimes a flatted scale. Thus, as I said, a three-keyboard instrument is
> needed. Key-signature stops select the tuning needed for a given piece.

ah ... but here lies the crux of my argument with you.

you say "the Subdominant IV chord at +/- 498 cents is common in Western
music",
but that's simply not true. the only "Western music" which has ever
required
that tuning is that of modern just-intonation composers (Partch, Lou
Harrison,
Ben Johnston, Kyle Gann, David Doty, Jacky Ligon, myself, and many others,
several of whom have come and gone from this list), and *perhaps* vocal
music
of the Renaissance (but there's a good deal of debate about that too). even
barbershop-quartet singing, which *sounds* beautifully just-intoned, makes
use of slight pitch adjustments which result in some form of adaptive-JI
rather than "pure just-intonation".

the Subdominant IV chord which *is* common in Western music is one whose
root is tuned variously in either 12edo (400 cents) or some variety of
meantone (anywhere from ~501.63 cents for 1/6-comma to ~508.8 cents for
1/2-comma) or well-temperament (where the "4th" varies from the ~498 cents
of Pythagorean to approximately the same as those of meantone).

those three families of tunings are the ones which were intended by the vast
majority of Western "common-practice" composers. in broad general terms,
meantone was popular from about 1500 to 1800, well-temperaments from about
1700 to 1850, and 12edo from about 1850 to the present.

i'm not debating the validity of your tunings or your theories ...
but i *am* debating your sweeping all-inclusive statements about them.

the history of the world's tunings is *far* more complex and varied than
most people realize ... and "most people" includes even many who have
devoted considerable study to the subject.

i'm simply urging caution about stating personal generalizations as
absolute facts.

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"

In a message dated 9/12/02 2:26:40 AM Central Daylight Time,
monz@attglobal.net writes:

> you say "the Subdominant IV chord at +/- 498 cents is common in Western
> music",
> but that's simply not true. the only "Western music" which has ever
> required
>
Again, I was speaking in terms of the jsut scale, not the exact pitch used.
I've scored many 100s of hymsn for organ. And I can tell you the IV chord is
found in most. Occasionally a hymn is composed without it. Appalachian music
uses it frely as well. It usually fails to use the minor 7th chord. As that
was begun to be used in Germany via the Lutheran Reformers who wanted their
congregations to sing in four parts. After they started that, Monteverde
began to use the minor 7th chord in his music. And the "classical" composers
picked up on it after that.

Sincerely,
Pauline W. Phillips, Moderator, <A HREF="/JohannusOrgansSchool ">Johannus Organs eSchool</A>
Johannus Orgelbouw, Holland, builds pipe, pipe-digital, digital-sampled
organs.
Moderator, <A HREF="/JustIntonationOrganSchool/">Just Intonation Organ eSchool</A>