Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: [tuning] Ramos

> From: "jdstarrett" <jstarret@carbon.cudenver.edu>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 8:07 AM
> Subject: [tuning] (unknown)
>

> Hi all. I recently recieved this email, and I wonder
> if any list members can assist my correspondent:
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> I some how came acrros and old msg you produced while
>> discusiing Dr. Fose's doctoral work on Bartolome Ramos
>> just tunning works, i.e. his Musica Practica of 1482.
>>
>> I am a PhD in Engineering and amateur pianist, and
>> being a Spaniard as Bartolome, I would like to confirm
>> that he did in fact fought for just intonation. I have
>> read some of his book in the orignal latin, but my latin
>> is not good enough to be sure of the points.
>>
>> I would appreciatte if you could clarify exactly the
>> terms of Bartolomï¿½s proposition and if you know of any
>> English, Spanish version of the text available in e-form.
>>
>> thanks a lot
>>
>> Carlos Garcï¿½a Suï¿½rez
>> Madrid
>
> Thanks, all.
>
> John Starrett

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/erlich/ramospblock.htm

Ramos was the first European theorist to propose a monochord
tuning which explicitly replaced the Pythagorean "3rds"/"6ths"
with 5-limit ones.

my analysis of Ramos's tuning appears on p 82-83 of my book
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/book/book.htm

-monz

Hello, everyone, and in response to the discussion of Ramos, I have a
few comments.

First of all, his introduction in 1482 of a monochord deriving major
and minor thirds as ratios of 5:4 and 6:5 is indeed noteworthy, and
may have been influential for the great philosopher Marsilio Ficino,
for example.

In an essay on music apparently dating to the years immediately after
the publication of this treatise, Ficino cites the major third at 5:4,
together with the 3:2 fifth and 2:1 octave, as a primary consonance.

At the same time, I would urge that we link the treatise of Ramos to
some developments of the time in the stylistic trends of European
music, and in the practice of tuning keyboards.

While Pythagorean tuning is a very practical and fitting system for
most 13th-14th century compositions of Continental Western Europe, the
modifications of Pythagorean tuning in the earlier 15th century
evidently led, by around 1450-1480, to a shift toward meantone
temperament.

As Mark Lindley has observed, Ramos in his treatise discusses not only
his 5-limit monochord in just intonation, but also a 12-note keyboard
tuning very likely in some variety of meantone, with Ab-C# as the
preferred range. The discussion by Ramos of "good" and "bad" intervals
on this keyboard suggests meantone rather than a just tuning based on
his monochord or a similar scheme.

It is noteworthy that in 1496, Gafurius, the champion of Pythagorean
ratios as a basis for the theory of tuning, himself reports that
organists make fifths narrower than pure by "a certain small and
hidden quantity." This comment also suggests some kind of meantone.

While ratios of 5 indeed occur in both ancient Greek and medieval Near
Eastern music theory, I might remark that such traditions also present
a variety of other ratios for intervals we would term thirds and
sixths.

In addition to Pythagorean ratios, both regular and 3-5 schismic,
there are ratios such as 7:6 and 9:7 (the diatonic of Archytas, also
appearing in al-Farabi); 11:7 and 14:11 (e.g. Ptolemy's syntonic
chromatic); and also a range of neutral or "semi-neutral" ratios
(e.g. 11:9, 27:22, 13:8, 21:13).

As it happened, ratios of 5:4 and 6:5 nicely fit the stylistic trends
of late 15th-century Europe, with Ramos as an important landmark both
for just intonation theory and for his comments on a 12-note keyboard
likely in a meantone temperament of some kind.

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@value.net

Re: [tuning] Ramos

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

🔗M. Schulter <MSCHULTER@VALUE.NET>

🔗Leen van Assendelft <leenvanass@wanadoo.nl>