Temperament comparisons

Marc writes:

>but I don't have practical access
>to such sounds, beyond the Beethoven in the Temperaments CD, some Ben
>Johnston microtonal piano music I've heard, and the numerous samples of
>microtonal music freely available on the Internet
Greetings,

The Beethoven CD was our first, there is now another one available. It
is "Six Degrees of Tonality". There is an MP3 site that has a Mozart
comparison done on the same Steinway tuned in three different tunings, (MT,
WT, and ET). Feel free to download, copy, give away, etc. It only shows two
renditions, but if you click on download all, it will give you the three
tracks.
go to http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/399/six_degrees_of_tonality.html

I would be interested to hear what you think. Numerous emailers have told me
that the first listen didn't make much difference, but after hearing the WT
version a second time, THEN the ET began to sound odd.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Nashville, Tn.

Ed,

Thanks for the recommendation. The samples sound interesting so far...I will listen to them in their entirety soon.

Yes, I had a similar reaction to the Beethoven in the Temperaments CD; the first time I listened to (parts of) it (a few years ago), I wasn't especially impressed; however, last week I listened to the whole CD and it was very remarkable. I am seriously planning to have my piano tuned in a well temperament when it's time for the next tuning. Besides the obvious (and probably positive) effect on the sound of common practice music, I am very curious how a piece like the Berg Sonata, Op. 1, would sound, as well as actual twelve-tone music (e.g. Babbitt). Perhaps not the most desirable, but I think it will be a small sacrifice in comparison to what is gained - if nothing else, for the experience of hearing something different.

I remember many of your posts to the old Classica list, which is how I first learned (in detail) of the various temperaments, although it's taken me this long to seriously consider the possibilities of tuning and microtonality as a composer. Anyway, keep up the good work - would love to see more CDs of well-tempered piano music.

Best,
Marc

In a message dated 8/27/02 9:00:57 PM Central Daylight Time,
op132@bigfoot.com writes:

> would love
> to see more CDs of well-tempered piano music.
>

As would I. How many recordings are there for example of J.S. Bach's Well
Tempered Clavier music in ET? I know of none in a true Well Tempered Tuning.
Isn't it about time that recording artists would see this as the angle they
could use to make a distinctive sounding recording that would actually sell?

Incidentally, there is a new Jazz CD available with the pianos tuned in a
mild, Victorian style Well tempered tuning. Just see my website by clicking
below. This kind of tuning would suit 12 tone or atonal music well and also
serve any classical music and any 20th Century music of virtually any style.

Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison, Wisconsin
<A HREF="http://www.billbremmer.com/">Click here: -=w w w . b i l l b r e m m e r . c o m =-</A>

Marc writes:

>Yes, I had a similar reaction to the Beethoven in the Temperaments CD;
>the first time I listened to (parts of) it (a few years ago), I wasn't
>especially impressed; however, last week I listened to the whole CD and
>it was very remarkable.

Well, thanks for remarking!
This is not an uncommon response(ie, you ain't alone). I have often been
told by listeners that ,on first listening, there was little difference to
their ear, yet after several exposures, they began to discern what is missing
in the ET versions of the same pieces. It seems that there is a process of
"recoupment" on the sensual level that takes place with repeated exposure.
This makes me wonder how much of the great piano literature's affective power
has been lost by the subtle transcription into equal temperament. It does
seem that the last 100 years has seen a lessening of attraction to the great
keyboard composers. (what does hip hop have that Haydn don't? Is there not
enought beat in Beethoven or motion in Mozart? Get Bach, Loretta!)
The change in musical quality between tunings may be so subtle as to be
easily missed on initial hearing but many of us involved in the Temperament
Revival go on in the faith that there is something of exquisite value in the
work of the great composers that is lost without a harmonic palette
representative of their times. Are we in the teapot? Perhaps, but a number
of events sustains us. Chiefly among them, the response of the musicians.
Even though a listener may not immediately recognize a change, the pianist is
usually aware of something as soon as they touch the instrument. How that
change is received often depends on what their expectations were going into
it. In this process, the tuner must become the guide, and lemme say,
established ivory-tower types don't normally like to grant guide status to
the 'tuner', but that is changing.
Whereas today, there are a great many innovators of temperament, (this
list bears proof of that!), and there is a wonderful promise of new
intonational resources for today and the future in our "many-N-based"
explorations, the true musical architecture of Bach, Haydn, Mozart,
Beethoven, etal. requires less theory than research. We know how
Werckmeister's proposals were molded into a variety of shapes by Kirnberger,
Rousseau, Prelleur, Smith and Young, as well as countless others. From our
21st Century vantage point, we can see the common denominators that remained
in place between 1680 and 1900 as the octave was hammered this way and that,
reflecting not only pietistic desires, but supposed "natural" values and
sought after emotional states. The whole concept of "key character" lent
ammo to the war between the proponents of the "intellectual" and the
subscribers to "Ethos".
I believe that composers of the past had little to say about any given
temperament du jour because the concept was universally understood. Once you
got past the restrictions of Meantone, it was just a guessing game for the
average choirmaster or music teacher to get the 12 notes placed so that
nothing really screamed. The basic allotment of dissonance was common
enough for virtually everybody to recognize the difference in feel between a
C-E third and the F#-A#. The various divisions found between these extremes
were in all probability fluid, but the overall concept of rising dissonance
seems to have been shared by the vast majority of writers.
It would have been as surprising to hear George Gershwin praise
equality as it would have been for Mozart to remark on key color, they just
used the tools at their disposal to create something that would sell.
(though, according to Schubart, there were numerous writers that did go on
record as to the emotional states represented by various keys).

>I am seriously planning to have my piano tuned
>in a well temperament when it's time for the next tuning. Besides the
>obvious (and probably positive) effect on the sound of common practice
>music, I am very curious how a piece like the Berg Sonata, Op. 1, would
>sound, as well as actual twelve-tone music (e.g. Babbitt). Perhaps not
>the most desirable, but I think it will be a small sacrifice in
>comparison to what is gained - if nothing else, for the experience of
>hearing something different.

The effect on the music depends on the performers use of the resources. As
Enid Katahn has said, "Highly tempered intervals can be made to sound harsh,
or they can be made to sound expressive, it depends on how you play them".
It is often best for the modern ear to make a small departure, (as well as
being gentle on the piano). For this purpose, I think a copy of the
Broadwood tuning would be a wise first step. If you would like the info for
your tuner, I will be glad to send it along,(deviations from ET, in cents).
Regards,
Ed Foote
Nashville, Tn.

In a message dated 9/2/02 8:06:06 PM Central Daylight Time, a440a@aol.com
writes:

> This makes me wonder how much of the great piano literature's affective
> power
> has been lost by the subtle transcription into equal temperament. It does
> seem that the last 100 years has seen a lessening of attraction to the
> great
> keyboard composers.
> there is something of exquisite value in the
> work of the great composers that is lost without a harmonic palette
> representative of their times.
>
> Ed Foote
>
Ed,

The Johannus digital-sampled organ in my church playes in ET, WM or MT. I
agree iwth your assessment of the difference a given temperament makes in
music quality.

MT is good for keys 0-2#/b, unless the B major chord is used. In which case
WM is used. WM is good also for 3-4b. When the music is in 3-4# or 5b, I use
ET.

I might mention, I have a forum below that deals with just intonation, just
temperament, and my organ I'm building tuned to just temperament. JT is a
very slight detuning of the theoretical cents valuses. This permits a
practical scale, and keeps the intervals from being in phase. Intervals or
chords 100% in phase sound dead. They don't occur naturally. And the major
third in a tirad has a reedy quality not wanted in most music. I notice this
also when singers record themselves singing in pure just major thirds.

Sincerely,
Pauline W. Phillips, Moderator, <A HREF="/JohannusOrgansSchool ">Johannus Organs eSchool</A>
Johannus Orgelbouw, Holland, builds pipe, pipe-digital, digital-sampled
organs.
Moderator, <A HREF="/JustIntonationOrganSchool/">Just Intonation Organ eSchool</A>

Hello, there, Ed Foote and everyone.

Please excuse me for offering one fine point on "the limitations of
meantone" which shouldn't in any way substantially alter your fine
discussion of late 17th-19th century keyboard music and its
intonation.

What I might suggest is to speak more precisely of "the limitations of
12-note meantone," which is, of course, the practical problem
confronted by tuners of around 1680-1720 who were dealing mainly with
12-note keyboard instruments.

Of course, this might be a rather academic point for your universe of
discourse: piano music, where 12 notes per octave is generally
assumed. I have seen one proposal around the end of the 19th century
to develop a version of the grand piano with a meantone tuning using
more than 12 notes -- 31 notes per octave would give a complete
circulating tuning in 1/4-comma -- but that is rather the theoretical
exception that proves the rule.

Harpsichords and/or organs in meantone with 31 notes per octave were
built by Nicola Vicentino (1555), and by Fabio Colonna (1618) and his
colleague Scipione Stella.

Looking at the achievements of 31-note meantone in the Renaissance and
Manneristic eras, and its uses in the 20th and 21st centuries
(e.g. Fokker) is, of course, a different stylistic question than
intonational practices of 1700-1900 on 12-note pianos.

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@value.net