Re: [tuning] Re: JI and the listening composer-reply to Bob

Dear Bob,

I have read your post several times now and thought about it all day. If it
was very short I would have probably let it go. But I am in great spirits
after a wonderful day with my youngest sister and her family in Golden's
Bridge, NY.And not that the AFMM season is concluding for the year, I think I
can respond, and should respond. I'm sure you will enjoy at least some of my
response.

> I challenge anyone to detect a one cent error even with unisons when
> the pitches are not simultaneous and there is a gap of over half a
> second between two consecutive pitches one cent apart. I can barely
> hear two cents under these conditions and wouldn't notice it if I
> weren't looking for it. If there are those who can meet this
> challenge successfully, they are so rare as to be insignificant in
> any practical musical scenario.

Well, of course I only know that I can vocalize and play on a recorder
cent-step intervals. I know I can juggle them on voice, recorder, and
bassoon. My players must be able to double others without vibrato. Oh, it
shouldn't be insignificant for a fine-eared person to be a music director,
like yourself? Wouldn't a .5 cent error be safer? Maybe there is a good
reception for more accurate pitches electronically that could aid electronic
music. 14 bit pitch bend MIDI has available 16,384-equal temperament already
available. What are we waiting for?

No one would be happier than I if such people abounded. I find my >
> ears constantly assailed by tin-eared "musicians" who miss with
> pitches orders of magitude worse. They have, nevertheless, somehow
> been contracted to perform for classical recordings on well-known
> commercial labels.
>

It is, though, all relative, I mean about the tin-eared "musicians." Vibrato
is a horrible distortion on the voice that seems always best to me when I am
relatively unaware of it. All too often is an automatic mask on the sound.
Once again, might not greater divisions that we can consciously hear, aid in
timbres to be produced by electronics?

> So I would like to suggest that we have much bigger fires to fight
> than squabbling over errors under two cents. One of the main
> objections I hear to anything other than 12t-ET is that the
> differences between 12t-ET and JI are not practically significant.
>

Rather than fight any fires, I do have a story. I once coached some early
music singers for performances of Wilbye and Weelkes, just 2 songs. The
soprano kept snapping into equal tempered perfect fifths. It was
striking...it's like her vocal chord had been set at a place like an old
neglected piano and couldn't readjust. Even she was shocked that she did
this. She had perfect pitch and so she was quite aware she was doing this.
And it is only a bit under 2 cents.

Now, when you speak about how the differences between 12t-ET and JI are not
practically significant. I have to stop and think again.....Hmn.....I guess
this would put my work with Werckmeister for Bach beneath notice, and
insignificant. I'm not really offended, but I would ask you to consider if
this might not be more of a value judgment than you intended?
It seems that the intensity that tuning matters held by certain important
musical individuals in early music history testifies to the significance that
they felt.

> This burns me, but squabbling over errors under two cents when they
> are not cumulative completely undermines any case we could make in
> answer to such stupidity and classifies us to the common practice
> world as anally afflicted theoretical nitpickers. Moreover, during
> the infamous and strange Jerries experiments, I failed to see any
> evidence among those of us who participated that anything like this
> kind of aural acumen exists even among us microtonal enthusiasts.

The Jerries experiments didn't seem to function well and I did not
participate, regardless. I am not theoretical at all. I am all about
performance. And if it is all the same to you, please, let us err on the
side of greater acuity. It is available, if only as an ideal. Now a big
waterbug has just climbed onto my desk and I will have to go. My cat should
find it by morning. For now, I thank you for your consideration. best,
Johnny Reinhard

> And by the way, 612-EDO is incredibly accurate through 19-limit if we
> don't remain "anal" about very small errors that are still larger
> than "a fifth of a cent".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
>
>
>

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

And if it is all the same to you, please, let us err on the
> side of greater acuity.

What is your notion of an acutity beyond which we don't need to go? Again, this is an important question when dealing with microtemperaments.

In a message dated 6/14/02 12:30:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
genewardsmith@juno.com writes:

> What is your notion of an acutity beyond which we don't need to go? Again,
> this is an important question when dealing with microtemperaments.
>
>
>
>

My point is that none of us have had the precision available through MIDI
which would allow what some on the list think is overkill. My point is at
first intuitive in that I suspect that the most control we have of the tools
for making patches, the more powerful the musical instrument. Right now
synthesizers are using the 14 bit greater acuity for Theremin because it
creates a truly believable analog quality for the glissando. This alone may
be worth the greater possibilities. Timbre, too, might be a new development
with precisions possible. Imagine a hint of an interval so exactly in synch
that it truly has a different effect, meaning, noticeability, etc.

best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> > One of the main
> > objections I hear to anything other than 12t-ET is that the
> > differences between 12t-ET and JI are not practically
> > significant.

> Now, when you speak about how the differences between 12t-ET and JI
are not
> practically significant. I have to stop and think
again.....Hmn.....I guess
> this would put my work with Werckmeister for Bach beneath notice,
and
> insignificant. I'm not really offended, but I would ask you to
consider if
> this might not be more of a value judgment than you intended?

johnny, i may be missing your meaning, but could it be that you've
misread bob's point of view entirely? if you read what bob wrote (and
has written) again, you'll see that this point of view is *not*
reflective of bob's *own* opinion -- in fact, bob feels that the
differences between 12-equal and ji are *extremely* significant.

> It seems that the intensity that tuning matters held by certain
important
> musical individuals in early music history testifies to the
significance that
> they felt.

given bob's many posts on this subject, i'd have to say you're
preaching to the converted! am i misreading you here, johnny?

In a message dated 6/14/02 5:26:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

> in fact, bob feels that the
> differences between 12-equal and ji are *extremely* significant.
>
>

Ah, great! I did read this incorrectly. Also KHZ, which I took for Herz.
Sorry, sometimes there is little turn around time and I become the latest
incarnation of Rosana Rosanadana. ;)

best, Johnny Reinhard

Oh, good post Alison. Attention to detail is got all of us to where we are
today.