Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: [tuning] Re: 72-equal origin-to Paul

In a message dated 6/12/02 7:58:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

>
> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 6/12/02 7:10:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > paul@s... writes:
> >
> >
> > > 31-equal make him cringe,
>
> > Ezra demands, yes. But 31 does not make anyone cringe.
>
> i saw his face, johnny! and he told me as much immediately afterwards.

>You guys are taking Ezra Sims' hyperbole and blowing it to places it
>does not apply to.

Ezra gives hyperbole in person. Have you ever met an actor? I once saw Ezra
threaten percussionists with coming up on stage and grabbing their sticks
away from them if they weren't doing their job right! Ezra has a String
Quartet that contains a clarinet: consider this a clue. No one cringes from
31ET.

>
> which guys?
>

You, Paul. And anyone that buys into what he is selling.

> > Listen
> > to the music and tell me you hear an approximating of just as an
> >intent in a
> > particular piece of Sims.
>
> not just in the way i would have conceived "just" myself, but after
> reading his writings, yes i can hear it.

This sounds awfully academic to me. No offense. Think about it. The
feelings that one can obtain in Just are not in Ezra's music. Are they in La
Monte Young's music? Yes. Even inharmonic, Partch is Just. What I wonder is
whether you would accept that 24ET is really just a great simulation of
important 11 limit JI intervals. Wyschnegradsky used to claim this.

when producing two notes in
> a clear ratio, he often introduces the summation tone, which is often
> not typically something i would have thought of as "consonant". but
> as the difference tones reinforce the original tones, and as this
> whole phenomenon is inextricably tied in with the ratios involved,
> i'd say that yes, the particular just phenomenon that he is
> interested in working with probably comes through in some of the
> recordings and performances i've heard -- though we'd have to be
> inside his head to know for sure.

Paul, you need to be in Ezra's head to know for sure? I can only use my head
and when I hear the many efforts that have been made in 72ET I am at a loss
to find some use of chorale writing simulating Just. Hunting for a
difference tone to defend justness is a little silly. It should be clear
enough to tell whether there is a just borrowing in 72. I simply do not hear
it. And no one has yet named a piece that proves otherwise.

> > I find he uses 72 very well for many of its
> > properties.
>
> absolutely. a big modulating 37-limit scale is his stated intent.
> this is even a stricter invocation of ji than what joseph is doing in
> 72 (things that no ji scale could do), and yet joseph himself is
> telling us that ji is his intent. so that leads us into some of the
> far corners of the great "what is ji" debate that i don't feel
> inclined to revisit now. let alone the philosophical vagaries
> of "hearing intent"

Paul, this does not have to be about debating. And it is not about intent.
It is about products. If a composer hears just in his or her head, and
someone cannot hear the music as just who knows what just sounds like, does
the intent insure the result?

best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> And anyone that buys into what he is selling.

why don't i run that buy him next time i see him?

> This sounds awfully academic to me. No offense. Think about it.
The
> feelings that one can obtain in Just are not in Ezra's music.

hmm . . . even if you played it in the ji scale he proposes?

> Are they in La
> Monte Young's music? Yes.

a bit of apples and oranges?

> Paul, you need to be in Ezra's head to know for sure? I can only
use my head
> and when I hear the many efforts that have been made in 72ET I am
at a loss
> to find some use of chorale writing simulating Just.

how about graham breed's progression, as voiced by monz? this was the
one joseph likes so much, and that inspired many of the procedures
used in his composition. i went over to joseph's house and we learned
to play this progression on the keyboard. i'm sure we could arrange
for a direct comparison, perhaps with adaptive ji as a third option.

> Paul, this does not have to be about debating. And it is not about
intent.
> It is about products. If a composer hears just in his or her head,
and
> someone cannot hear the music as just who knows what just sounds
like, does
> the intent insure the result?

no it doesn't. it will take sensitivity on the part of the players,
and more. it's up to the composer to decide if his or her intent was
expresssed. and going by what you are saying above, in this case,
what this composer tells you about whether he likes it or not, is not
to be taken literally anyway. :)

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 6/12/02 8:58:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

> how about graham breed's progression, as voiced by monz? this was the
> one joseph likes so much, and that inspired many of the procedures
> used in his composition. i went over to joseph's house and we learned
> to play this progression on the keyboard. i'm sure we could arrange
> for a direct comparison, perhaps with adaptive ji as a third option.
>
>

My point is that the progressions that might offer a comparison are not in
any single piece of 72 that I have ever heard. That's all. I'm sure they
work well for Graham, Monz, and Joseph when it is set up as an experiment.
But it's simply not in the music that has been created. This is related to
the how pedestrian quartertones are considered on this list, even though some
of the best music with microtones is with quartertones.

best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> My point is that the progressions that might offer a comparison are
not in
> any single piece of 72 that I have ever heard.

well it sounds like that might change with joseph's next piece. or
mine. keep an open mind.

> I'm sure they
> work well for Graham, Monz, and Joseph when it is set up as an
>experiment.

it hasn't been.

> But it's simply not in the music that has been created. This is
related to
> the how pedestrian quartertones are considered on this list, even
though some
> of the best music with microtones is with quartertones.

i'll play along with this game, though it's only a game:

could this be simply because most of the composers who have decided
to delve into microtonality did so through quartertones?

🔗graham@microtonal.co.uk

In-Reply-To: <ae8su1+lc39@eGroups.com>
Johnny:
> > I'm sure they
> > work well for Graham, Monz, and Joseph when it is set up as an
> >experiment.

Paul:
> it hasn't been.

Well hold on there! The chord progression that was given as an example is
certainly an experiment. That can be proved because I didn't know what it
sounded like until Monz did the audio file. The decimal counterpoint
examples are also experiments. Real music's less likely to demonstrate
the almost-just harmony because it isn't designed to do so. Most of my
Miracle pieces have been melodic, because that's easier.

The piece I uploaded on Monday, near the top of
<http://x31eq.com/music/> does use mostly 9-limit intervals
between the bass and melody parts. Because they're an octave or two
apart, it isn't that obvious, but enough that I could spot some wrong
notes. I don't know if it counts as "JI-like" or not, and I'm not really
interested. But it is different to what you'd get by choosing random
intervals from 72-equal. It might count as atonal as well.

Graham

🔗emotionaljourney22 <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Wasn't the harp piece a lattice of 3's and 7's

emotionaljourney22 wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., graham@m... wrote:
>
> > Real music's less likely to demonstrate
> > the almost-just harmony because it isn't designed to do so.
>
> what about james tenney's music for 6 harps? for 6 guitars? he uses
> 72-equal as a 'proxy' for just intonation -- if sims or pehrson don't
> make the point, maybe tenney does?
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

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