a microtonal guitar question

Here's a question for all our resident luthiers and assorted
microtonal instrument aficionados: Has anyone ever seen, hear of, or
made a microtonal guitar with adjustable straight frets? (Not
individual fretlets like the Vogt guitar, but a similarly streamlined,
professional and fully adjustable sitar-like set up that would allow
any amount of full frets to be slid and locked into place at any given
position.)

I've dreamed of this guitar for over ten years now, and I even got as
far as talking specifics with Rick Canton (the guy who made my
aluminum fingerboard Les Paul). But alas it never came to pass. Maybe
someone has already done this?

BTW, congratulations to Bill Sethares who won the (virtual) stick draw
today for the opportunity to purchase Peter Blasser's 31-tet
classical. Though the dice didn't roll my way, it sure was nice to see
these sorts of fair, in-house dealings within our community... it was
a pleasure dealing with both these guys.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Here's a question for all our resident luthiers and assorted
> microtonal instrument aficionados: Has anyone ever seen, hear of, or
> made a microtonal guitar with adjustable straight frets?

i "own" such an instrument, the armentian Tar; the frets are tied on.
unfortunately, the instrument is holed up in armenian customs . . .

> BTW, congratulations to Bill Sethares who won the (virtual) stick
draw
> today for the opportunity to purchase Peter Blasser's 31-tet
> classical. Though the dice didn't roll my way, it sure was nice to
see
> these sorts of fair, in-house dealings within our community

was my name in that draw?

I have tied frets on a vihuela, which work. I've never tried them on a
guitar, and they proabably wouldn't work with steel strings, but would with
nylon:

http://john.redmood.com/lutefret.html

http://www.daniellarson.com/lfrets.htm

http://www.vanedwar.dircon.co.uk/fretknot.htm

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: D.Stearns [mailto:STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET]
> Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 12:34 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] a microtonal guitar question
>
>
> Here's a question for all our resident luthiers and assorted
> microtonal instrument aficionados: Has anyone ever seen, hear of, or
> made a microtonal guitar with adjustable straight frets? (Not
> individual fretlets like the Vogt guitar, but a similarly streamlined,
> professional and fully adjustable sitar-like set up that would allow
> any amount of full frets to be slid and locked into place at any given
> position.)
>
> I've dreamed of this guitar for over ten years now, and I even got as
> far as talking specifics with Rick Canton (the guy who made my
> aluminum fingerboard Les Paul). But alas it never came to pass. Maybe
> someone has already done this?
>
> BTW, congratulations to Bill Sethares who won the (virtual) stick draw
> today for the opportunity to purchase Peter Blasser's 31-tet
> classical. Though the dice didn't roll my way, it sure was nice to see
> these sorts of fair, in-house dealings within our community... it was
> a pleasure dealing with both these guys.
>
>
> take care,
>
> --Dan Stearns
>
>
>
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>

Paul,

I had a saz on loan from Bret Hart for quite a while (a couple of
years in fact), and that was the same deal--tie on frets. While this
is basically the right idea, it's not quite what I'm looking
for--think the Vogt guitar only with whole frets instead of fretlets.

Having them snap in to two tracks from the top is kind of what I
envisioned... something that can be easily and added to or subtracted
from in short order and is maximally flexible and playable is what I
had in mind.

As far as Pete's guitar goes, I don't know. Did you make an offer or
something? I did and from what I understand so did Bill, and that's
really all I know for sure. As far as I know we were the only two who
did.

I do remember you posting to the list something or the other about
taking the whole deal over to ebay and trying to get a grand or more
for it. It was Pete's prerogative to do so if he so desired and that's
all well and fine, but I for one sure am glad that he didn't do
that--in fact I was very impressed with his resolute fairness and
complete lack of greed in lieu of such a thing. That's always rare,
and rarer than ever today. He certainly won my respect for whatever
that's worth.

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "emotionaljourney22" <paul@stretch-music.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:07 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: a microtonal guitar question

> --- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> > Here's a question for all our resident luthiers and assorted
> > microtonal instrument aficionados: Has anyone ever seen, hear of,
or
> > made a microtonal guitar with adjustable straight frets?
>
> i "own" such an instrument, the armentian Tar; the frets are tied
on.
> unfortunately, the instrument is holed up in armenian customs . . .
>
> > BTW, congratulations to Bill Sethares who won the (virtual) stick
> draw
> > today for the opportunity to purchase Peter Blasser's 31-tet
> > classical. Though the dice didn't roll my way, it sure was nice to
> see
> > these sorts of fair, in-house dealings within our community
>
> was my name in that draw?
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

> As far as Pete's guitar goes, I don't know. Did you make an offer or
> something?

does "i would love to buy your instrument" count?

/tuning/topicId_36425.html#36426

Sorry I didn't pickup on other offers... perhaps later I will be able to sell some more... I make instruments, and all are tuned to other tunings. I currently am not selling any of what I truly have made (i.e. I made the whole instrument), but if anyone is interested in one of three other guitars I have refretted, I would sell them for real cheap. All three are 3/4 size, cheapos, repainted a little, the real interest is in the fretting, which is still nice:

1) one is fretted to 16 utonal (16 frets to the octave 16/16, 16/15, 8/7, ...)

2) arbitrarily fretted, about 16 frets chosen by how a drop of beer thrown from across the room lands on the board... a lewd version of mr. Cage.

3) ditto

I'd start em out at 20$ each, not including shipping (15$)
I'm pretty modest about prices... still have not learned yet how to make a living off of being insistant about my labor being worth 20$ an hour or so; I sold the 31 tet guitar for 300, and am perfectly happy, since I know that it is going to someone who will play it.

Paul, again I'm sorry I didn't notice that, it might have just slipped, since I only recently retuned into the list (have been off for a while due to "stormy" climates).

-p

Oh, and about movable frets... Stewart Macdonald or other guitar makers will try to convince you that you can only have frets sawed into the fretboard, made out of stainless steel. This is not the case... you can make what are really just hard nodes in a string out of anything. rip out all the frets, using a soldering iron to lightly heat each one up so it comes out smoother, fill (or not fill if it's too toilsome) each slot with epoxy, and sand the top smooth... Use nails lain across the fretboard, strapped down with rubber bands for something a little more "rocking" than tied on frets... of course this will rip up your hands pretty quickly too... I mean when I fret, tight frets are really best with real guitar-supply fretwire, but broad fretting like 7tet could use steel rods, like the chapman stick, with a slot _routed_ instead of _sawed_... I've done this, and it works really really well, better than fretwire, and cheaper... For something really interesting, "draw" frets on a smoothed fretboard with beads of epoxy (use the long-setting kind, because its harder). Smooth it out with a piece of sandpaper on a long straight block. But really let it cure first. Won't last too long with steel strings, but hey, what lasts too long anyway?

I've always been interested in what could be termed the anarchist way of looking at instruments making, because in turning over the old consumerist model of customizing things (buying spendy stuff from guitar-supply places), you figure out the most economical and often better (because it's designed especially for alternative tunings, not optimized for 12tet) solution, moving the instrument maker from cottage-industry-chained-to-stewart-mac into true independant builder...

-p

Paul,

Hey man, it ain't my job to keep track of these things! All I remember
from you is your ebay bit. I wrote him off-list (where the details of
this stuff would seem most appropriate to hash out) and told him
exactly what I could pay, then after about a week he told me only Bill
Sethares had made a similar offer so he would leave it up to us to
figure out how to decide who should get it. Bill had a an idea, we did
it, he won, end of story.

Honestly though, I can't help but wondering why you didn't followed up
if you were really interested? I know if I were really interested in
such a thing I would've been knocking on someone's cyber door pretty
darn quickly to find out just what exactly was going on.

By airing this in public like you have here, you make it appear to one
and all as though there were some underhanded something or the other
going on... but from what I've seen of Peter, I think nothing could be
further from the truth.

Just think, I started the day by loosing out on a guitar I wanted but
was compelled to take a second to sing the praises of those involved
due to their uncommon fairness and good-natured business acumen, and
not a half an hour later I'm soured over the same deal having to
listen to someone else's (unfair) wining and innuendo. Oh well, so
much for my momentary rush of gusto and faith in the community!

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "emotionaljourney22" <paul@stretch-music.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: a microtonal guitar question

> --- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
>
> > As far as Pete's guitar goes, I don't know. Did you make an offer
or
> > something?
>
> does "i would love to buy your instrument" count?
>
> /tuning/topicId_36425.html#36426
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4
> and no minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/RrLolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-~->
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
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--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Hey man, it ain't my job to keep track of these things!

you bet it ain't!

> By airing this in public like you have here, you make it appear to
one
> and all as though there were some underhanded something or the other
> going on...

oh please.

> and
> not a half an hour later I'm soured over the same deal having to
> listen to someone else's (unfair) wining and innuendo.

who is that someone? i'd like to see this alleged "wining and
innuendo" -- point me to it.

--- In tuning@y..., Peter <PETER.BLASSER@O...> wrote:

> Sorry I didn't pickup on other offers...

no problem -- it was obviously an honest mistake.

> perhaps later I will be able to
> sell some more...

all right -- keep in touch!

-p

Peter,

Back when I was just starting out, and mostly just for the sake of
easy experimentation, I took the frets off a 3/4 size classical and
then cut pieces of old strings (Ds or As if I'm remembering right)
into fret-sized lengths. Then I'd just masking tape them on where ever
I wanted them by cutting fret-sized lengths of the tape and just
laying that over the fret-sized lengths of string.

You'd occasionally get some buzz and dull notes occasionally, but
changing them was a snap and I was just interested in hearing a lot of
different tunings, intervals, chords, and the like with something
other than a synth, and to this extent it really worked very nicely.

I also tried hammering staple tots right into the fingerboard to try
out JI fretlet type layouts. This was more of a pain, but this too
worked okay in a primitive, DIY kind of way.

I like your anarchist way of looking at instrument making, and it will
be very interesting to see what you come up with as you keep refining
your traditional skills as well. That's a very appealing mix to me.
(BTW, are you familiar with Reed Ghazala's surreal, David Lynch-like
instruments? Very cool and obviously quite unique.)

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter" <PETER.BLASSER@OBERLIN.EDU>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a microtonal guitar question

> Oh, and about movable frets... Stewart Macdonald or other guitar
makers
> will try to convince you that you can only have frets sawed into the
> fretboard, made out of stainless steel. This is not the case... you
can
> make what are really just hard nodes in a string out of anything.
rip out
> all the frets, using a soldering iron to lightly heat each one up so
it
> comes out smoother, fill (or not fill if it's too toilsome) each
slot with
> epoxy, and sand the top smooth... Use nails lain across the
fretboard,
> strapped down with rubber bands for something a little more
"rocking" than
> tied on frets... of course this will rip up your hands pretty
quickly
> too... I mean when I fret, tight frets are really best with real
> guitar-supply fretwire, but broad fretting like 7tet could use steel
rods,
> like the chapman stick, with a slot _routed_ instead of _sawed_...
I've
> done this, and it works really really well, better than fretwire,
and
> cheaper... For something really interesting, "draw" frets on a
smoothed
> fretboard with beads of epoxy (use the long-setting kind, because
its
> harder). Smooth it out with a piece of sandpaper on a long straight
block.
> But really let it cure first. Won't last too long with steel
strings, but
> hey, what lasts too long anyway?
>
> I've always been interested in what could be termed the anarchist
way of
> looking at instruments making, because in turning over the old
consumerist
> model of customizing things (buying spendy stuff from guitar-supply
> places), you figure out the most economical and often better
(because it's
> designed especially for alternative tunings, not optimized for
12tet)
> solution, moving the instrument maker from
> cottage-industry-chained-to-stewart-mac into true independant
builder...
>
> -p
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Buy Stock for $4
> and no minimums.
> FREE Money 2002.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/RrLolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-~->
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> Sorry I didn't pickup on other offers... perhaps later I will be
able to

For anyone interested, which is probably not very many these days,
hence the frequent weirdness, "pickup" is a NOUN, not a verb, as
in "I have to be there for the pickup right on time."

When it is a VERB, it is spelled separately: "pick up", as in " I
picked up the cup after I dropped it. I will pick you up at 3:00 PM.
I always pick up my socks".