Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Unaccompanied Singers Intonation

I have become very interested in the subject of unaccompanied singers or
strings players intonation. I consider that the minimum requirements
for this to interesting as information relevent to AJI (Automatic/
Adaptive Just Intonation) systems is that there be multiple parts (2 to
4) and that there be no accompanying instruments such as pianos as these
will inevitably draw the performers towards 12-tet. I am a lousy singer
but I found that even when I sing or whistle and record it then there
are some rather interesting ratios happening and so I want some good
music analysed. By good music I mean top performers with good clear
harmony between the parts, and no accompaniment.

REQUEST FOR HELP

If there is some good analysis of frequencies of such pieces already
available on the web them I would be interested to know about these.

Otherwise, I would like to receive any WAV files of pieces that anyone
has that satisfy the above criterion and I will do some analysis and
report the results.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that in the histogram of the ratio
between adjacent notes my whistling showed two clearly different peaks
at 10/9 and 9/8. I thought that I was totally tuneless but I find that
I whistle in JI rather than ET without even trying!

-- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm --
Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm
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Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm

🔗Can Akkoc <akkoc@xxxx.xxxx>

At 09:38 6/16/99 GMT, you wrote:
>From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
>
>I have become very interested in the subject of unaccompanied singers or
>strings players intonation. I consider that the minimum requirements
>for this to interesting as information relevent to AJI (Automatic/
>Adaptive Just Intonation) systems is that there be multiple parts (2 to
>4) and that there be no accompanying instruments such as pianos as these
>will inevitably draw the performers towards 12-tet. I am a lousy singer
>but I found that even when I sing or whistle and record it then there
>are some rather interesting ratios happening and so I want some good
>music analysed. By good music I mean top performers with good clear
>harmony between the parts, and no accompaniment.
>
*************************************************************************

Mr. Tomes,

I have always conjectured that legendary performers generate their own
impromptu adaptive tuning as they perform, depending upon the 'mood' or
'mode' they are in, sometimes even when they are accompanied by an ensemble
playing at 12TET. Carl Seashore has made actual measurements on performances
by such virtuosos of non-keyboard or non-fretted instruments while
performing concertos and found this to be the case with surprising
deviations in tuning between the soloist and the orchestra. I would not be
surprised to find such variations in tuning even from one performance to
another on the same composition.

I would like to determine these dynamic scales for such performers to
uncover their 'secrets' with the hope of understanding the dynamic nature
of such improvised intonations. This might be a crucial factor separating a
'good' performer from a 'legendary' performer.

Sincerely,

Dr. Can Akkoc
Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
1255 Dauphin Street
Mobile, AL 36604
USA

Phone: (334) 441-2126
Fax: (334) 441-3290
Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/

🔗monz@xxxx.xxx

[Can Akkoc, TD 221.13]
> I have always conjectured that legendary performers generate
> their own impromptu adaptive tuning as they perform, depending
> upon the 'mood' or 'mode' they are in, sometimes even when they
> are accompanied by an ensemble playing at 12TET.
> <snip>
> I would like to determine these dynamic scales for such
> performers to uncover their 'secrets' with the hope of
> understanding the dynamic nature of such improvised intonations.
> This might be a crucial factor separating a 'good' performer
> from a 'legendary' performer.

Linus Liu has done interesting work like this. His website
has MIDI files of _Hey Jude_ and _Hotel California_ with the
vocal pitches tuned according to a system he's calculated
(no details given - he has a patent), which sound quite close
to the actual vocals by Paul McCartney and Don Henley.

I don't have the URL - perhaps it's on John Starrett's site.

Joseph L. Monzo monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
--------------------------------------------------

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🔗rtomes@xxxxx.xxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxx)

Can Akkoc [221.13]

>I have always conjectured that legendary performers generate their own
>impromptu adaptive tuning as they perform, depending upon the 'mood' or
>'mode' they are in, sometimes even when they are accompanied by an ensemble
>playing at 12TET.

I am sure that you are right. With a piano playing a chord each section
of a choir has a choice of which notes(s) to harmonise with. Perhaps
that choice would vary with such factors as how far the strongest singer
in the section is from the piano compared to other sections :)

>Carl Seashore has made actual measurements on performances
>by such virtuosos of non-keyboard or non-fretted instruments while
>performing concertos and found this to be the case with surprising
>deviations in tuning between the soloist and the orchestra.

Can you give me any references to this. Are they likely to be in the
local University Music School?

>I would not be
>surprised to find such variations in tuning even from one performance to
>another on the same composition.

This argues for studying many performers and many performances to get an
adequate understanding of the possibilities and reach useful
conclusions.

>I would like to determine these dynamic scales for such performers to
>uncover their 'secrets' with the hope of understanding the dynamic nature
>of such improvised intonations. This might be a crucial factor separating a
>'good' performer from a 'legendary' performer.

... and for paying particular attention to those performances which are
considered especially fine ones! Clearly this should be added to my
list of desirable features for pieces to analyse.

🔗Can Akkoc <akkoc@asms.net>

At 00:03 6/18/99 GMT, you wrote:
>From: rtomes@kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes)
>
>Can Akkoc [221.13]
>
>>Carl Seashore has made actual measurements on performances
>>by such virtuosos of non-keyboard or non-fretted instruments while
>>performing concertos and found this to be the case with surprising
>>deviations in tuning between the soloist and the orchestra.
>
>Can you give me any references to this. Are they likely to be in the
>local University Music School?
>

Please see Carl Seashore's book titled 'Psychology of Music', McGraw-Hill,
New York, 1938. It is also available in Dover publications.

>>I would not be
>>surprised to find such variations in tuning even from one performance to
>>another on the same composition.
>
>This argues for studying many performers and many performances to get an
>adequate understanding of the possibilities and reach useful
>conclusions.
>

Precisely! I would love to see work and a debate initiated on this extremely
important issue in my humble judgement,

>>I would like to determine these dynamic scales for such performers to
>>uncover their 'secrets' with the hope of understanding the dynamic nature
>>of such improvised intonations. This might be a crucial factor separating a
>>'good' performer from a 'legendary' performer.
>
>... and for paying particular attention to those performances which are
>considered especially fine ones! Clearly this should be added to my
>list of desirable features for pieces to analyse.
>

We are in tune!

-- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm --
> Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm
>Alexandria eGroup list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/alex.htm
>Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm
>

I am fascinated by the mysteries of multi-level intonation I have observed
in traditional Turkish music during a 'taksim' (improvisation) in a certain
maqam (mode). The underlying modal scale is the global musical 'habitat',
and the musician if free to deviate from this macro intonation at the micro
level, thus bringing in all sorts of variations in tuning from the baseline
intonation. Such variations are triggered by the spiritual state of the
musician at that moment, and can vary in time. I am trying desperately to
determine, through direct measurements on improvisations made by
indisputable master musicians, how this instricate system of macro_micro
intonations works and how it is structured. I am looking for stochastic
patterns in the midst of such variations.

These considerations may turn out to be be universal and therefore
applicable to all musics of the planet.

Dr. Can Akkoc
Alabama School of Mathematics and Science
1255 Dauphin Street
Mobile, AL 36604
USA

Phone: (334) 441-2126
Fax: (334) 441-3290
Web: http://199.20.31.100/GIFT/

🔗rtomes@xxxxx.xxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxx)

Can Akkoc [TD223.9]
>Precisely! I would love to see work and a debate initiated on this extremely
>important issue in my humble judgement,

Let us keep posting on this until we get some others to join in.

>I am fascinated by the mysteries of multi-level intonation I have observed
>in traditional Turkish music during a 'taksim' (improvisation) in a certain
>maqam (mode). The underlying modal scale is the global musical 'habitat',
>and the musician if free to deviate from this macro intonation at the micro
>level, thus bringing in all sorts of variations in tuning from the baseline
>intonation. Such variations are triggered by the spiritual state of the
>musician at that moment, and can vary in time. I am trying desperately to
>determine, through direct measurements on improvisations made by
>indisputable master musicians, how this instricate system of macro_micro
>intonations works and how it is structured. I am looking for stochastic
>patterns in the midst of such variations.

>These considerations may turn out to be be universal and therefore
>applicable to all musics of the planet.

It is interesting that this thread is converging towards the "Effects of
sound on consciousness" thread. I think that you have hit the nail on
the head with the phrase "such variations are triggered by the spiritual
state of the musician at that moment". I compare this to ...

azrael [TD223.7] in "Effects of sound on consciousness" thread
>... It seems to me the actual frequencies of sound lead
>one to different realities/dimensions.

IMO you are both observing that people can tap into existing subtle
energies (which are usually considered spiritual).

<turn spelling checkers off> :)
[Dm my computer hs stopped displying the letter "a" when I type it <== I
did this one by cut nd pste but things could rpidly deteriorte!]

My own awareness of such energies and states was vastly increased by
learning vipassana meditation which I recommend to anyone wanting to
eliminate all forms of suffering and coming to understand themselves and
the world at a very deep level. See http://www.dhamma.com for info.

Another aspect of these subtle energies I think relates to the physical
locations of musicians relative to each other - a member of a drumming
group told me that from time to time they all move around to get
particular locations relative to each other. It seems that this could
relate to the wavelengths of the sounds that they make and the phase
relationships between them. If playing in a particular key it helps if
the distances are a multiple of the fundamental wavelength (which is
usually the subtonic).

It is quite stressful typing without some letter so I try here to not
need it to see if it is less difficult but it is still tough. Some
fellow wrote the book without using the letter "e" once. Could his keys
be like mine but the different one broken. Now I know how he felt.
<turn spelling checkers on>

🔗David J. Finnamore <dfin@bellsouth.net>

Dr. Can Akkoc wrote:

> I am fascinated by the mysteries of multi-level intonation I have observed
> in traditional Turkish music during a 'taksim' (improvisation) in a certain
> maqam (mode). The underlying modal scale is the global musical 'habitat',
> and the musician if free to deviate from this macro intonation at the micro
> level, thus bringing in all sorts of variations in tuning from the baseline
> intonation. Such variations are triggered by the spiritual state of the
> musician at that moment, and can vary in time. [snip]
>
> These considerations may turn out to be be universal and therefore
> applicable to all musics of the planet.

Yeah, sounds like blues to me. Not that Stevie Ray or
Junior Kimbro would have put it quite that way, mind you ...
;-)

I really like the idea of regarding a tuning as a habitat.
It synthesizes nicely (in the thesis-antithesis-synthesis
sense) with the rigid mindset necessary for mathematical
analysis.

David