Vivaldi question

I was teaching a bassoon lesson the other day when I noticed something new.
In the third movement of the A minor Sonata for Bassoon by Vivaldi, there is
both a notated Eb and a D#, as well as a notated G# and a Ab.

Doesn't this mean that either Vivaldi used extended meantone (requiring a
bassoonist to make distinctions? Or do y'all think it's a case of well
temperament? Or last possibility, editorial decisions by a modern publisher?

Curious what reactions this will get from the List.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> I was teaching a bassoon lesson the other day when I noticed
something new.
> In the third movement of the A minor Sonata for Bassoon by Vivaldi,
there is
> both a notated Eb and a D#, as well as a notated G# and a Ab.

are these as expected from the harmonic context (such distinctions
would be observed even by 19th century piano composers) or different?

> Doesn't this mean that either Vivaldi used extended meantone
(requiring a
> bassoonist to make distinctions)?

he may very well have, but 19th century piano composers didn't use
extended meantone, and yet still consistently distinguished Eb from
D#, and G# from Ab, as appropriate to harmonic context.

our best clue is to look at the wind instrument and string instrument
pedagogical literature from the period, *all* of which (to the best
of my knowledge) espoused an extended meantone model well into the
mid or late 18th century. the word meantone wasn't even used then --
for the preceding two or three centuries, what we now call meantone
was simply referred to as 'correct intonation'.

one should not take this to mean a specific flavor of meantone (e.g.
1/4-comma or 1/6-comma) was dominant for this entire period, though.

>I was teaching a bassoon lesson the other day when I noticed
>something new. In the third movement of the A minor Sonata
>for Bassoon by Vivaldi, there is both a notated Eb and a D#,
>as well as a notated G# and a Ab.

Have you checked other editions?

>Doesn't this mean that either Vivaldi used extended meantone
>(requiring a bassoonist to make distinctions? Or do y'all
>think it's a case of well temperament?

It doesn't necessarily mean that, though it's my belief that
Vivaldi thought in meantone more than even composers of today,
many of whom still distinguish between enharmonics.

>Or last possibility, editorial decisions by a modern publisher?

You'll have to do some digging to find out.

-Carl

In a message dated 3/27/02 3:41:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

> > both a notated Eb and a D#, as well as a notated G# and a Ab.
>
> are these as expected from the harmonic context (such distinctions
> would be observed even by 19th century piano composers) or different?
>
>

These are melodic notes in the bassoon line. The bassoon was a tough one to
tune, but I guess Vivaldi's secret lover (his bassoonist, an unmanageable
participant in his Asylum for Women Orchestra) could play just about
anything.

Best, Johnny Reinhard