Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1979

On 3/23/2002 12:27 AM, "tuning@yahoogroups.com" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:21:07 +0100
> From: LAFERRIERE François <francois.laferriere@cegetel.fr>
> Subject: a cappella major triad big surprise
>
> When discussing the jerries, Gerald made a quite interesting remark:
>
> Gerald Eskelin wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a hypothesis worth discussing sometime. Actually, it has
> nothing
>> to do with the high third we're talking about here. Here's the set up:
>
>> Play a low C and ask the basses to match it. Then ask the women to tune
>> a tenth above it. Once tuned, compare it to the piano's E and notice that
> it
>> is as one would think--slightly below. No surprise.
>
>> Then play a low C and ask the basses to match it and ask the tenors to
>> tune a perfect fifth above it. When the perfect fifth is in evidence,
> again
>> ask the women to tune a tenth above the bass. Note that their "third" will
>> be higher than the piano's third. *Big* surprise!
>
>> It works *every* time. I've demonstrated it with my choirs, other people's
>> choirs, and on the road with choral festival choirs I've never met.
>
>> No 7ths, 9ths and 13ths. No 6-9 chords. Just a simple major triad. Just
> like
>> in Renaissance endings.
>
> That is extremely interesting and altogether disturbing!! I had not the
> chance to propose this experiment to our choir master yet but I can't wait
> to do so!
>
> I have no explanation but only a few cues from my observation of a cappella
> ensemble sonogram. It seems that when a chord take place, the outer voices
> (i.e. soprano and bass) settle first while inner voices "fiddle around"
> their notes. Then after a very short while (order of tenths of second) inner
> voices find their place in the chord. I cannot claim to have a statistically
> representative sample but that seems to match subjective experience of
> chorus singing. Then intonation of various inversion of the same chord may
> be different, and furthermore, the order of entry of the voices may be quite
> significant as proved by Gerald experiment.

What is interesting, François, when the sopranos enter second (before
tenors) and carefully tune the "low" 4:5 third, their third "floats" upward
when the tenors introduce the fifth. Whether this is a "real" change of
pitch by the sopranos or simply an illusion is still a question in my mind.

However, the last time I did this with my college "beginner" choir, I stood
right in front of the sopranos and heard some individual "reshuffling" of
pitches. Then it settled into the "high" third. That would seem to suggest
that they actually changed their pitch when the tenors entered. I'll have to
do that again and see if it happens consistently.
>
> I have another remark, If we look at the placement of the partial in the
> chord, with emphasis on the common partial (assuming JI) for soprano-bass
> and soprano-tenor pair
>
> soprano...........1..........2.........3.........4
> tenor..........1.....2.....3.....4.....5.....6....
> bass.........1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...0
> S/Bcommon....................X...................X
> S/Tcommon..............................X..........
>
> In the first case (B,S then T entry ) sopranos can rely on the beat of their
> F2 with bass F5.
> In the second case (B,T, then S) depending of the physical disposal of the
> choir, the bass F5 may be more or less masked by tenor F3 which is normally
> much louder. Then instead of relying solely on bass F5, soprano may now rely
> also on the beat of their F3 with tenor's F5. Unfortunately, as I stated I a
> previous message, human voice is not produce by a string stretched on a
> wooden box and higher harmonics are not as sharp (in term of narrowness of
> spectral peak) as lowers ones, thus using soprano's F3 instead of F2 for
> beating cues for justness may be less reliable. If it is the case, sopranos
> may then rely on more subtle cues than beat adjustment (as well as on their
> musical subjective experience), subtle cues that may more subject to
> psychoacoustic affect such as octave stretching (but I do not know how).
>
> Anybody has ideas on the subject?
>
> François Laferrière

As I remember from last year's discussion of this topic, some of the list
members worked on this idea. Perhaps someone remembers where it led and can
point Francois to appropriate archieves.

Jerry

PS: Let us know what your choral person finds regarding the "experiment."

(Bob, I think the description of the "experiment" quoted above may be worded
differently from the one I quoted [copied] for you yesterday. If so, I think
this one is clearer.)

Gerald Eskelin wrote...
>What is interesting, François, when the sopranos enter second (before
>tenors) and carefully tune the "low" 4:5 third, their third "floats"
>upward when the tenors introduce the fifth. Whether this is a "real"
>change of pitch by the sopranos or simply an illusion is still a
>question in my mind.

Heya Jerry,

If you did check the sopranos with a piano before and after, I'd
say it wasn't just an illusion. No?

Just for the record, I've never directed a choir, but I've sang in
them, and I've never heard a "high third". But I never tried the
experiment, either. And I'm not a soprano. :)

-Carl